Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
Navigating the Future of Work with Innovative Leadership
Unlock the secrets to navigating leadership amid uncertainty on this compelling episode of Unpacked Podcast. Sit down with us as we chat with Jodi, a seasoned entrepreneur and coach from Baltimore, who transitions from a high-stakes corporate career to founding her own company. Discover how Jodi's innovative coaching and facilitation methods empower leaders to uncover the real issues behind their challenges, providing the on-call support necessary for making informed decisions. Learn how her unique approach helps business leaders manage their energy and decipher when to offer advice versus guiding clients to their own insights.
Explore the shifting dynamics of leadership in today's evolving workforce, especially with the rise of remote work and diverse generations. Leaders can no longer rely on physical presence alone to influence their teams. We discuss how to adapt leadership styles to meet the needs of a changing work environment. Redefine workplace relationships as true partnerships and focus on creating harmonious environments by understanding what each relationship needs to thrive. This episode provides invaluable insights into balancing personal preferences with effective team strategies.
COVID-19 has altered long-established business practices, challenging leaders to rethink outdated methods and embrace vulnerability. Examine how the pandemic has reshaped leadership, emphasizing the importance of transparency and the advantages of a support network. By admitting when they don't have all the answers, leaders can foster a collaborative culture that values input from all team members. We highlight the benefits of sharing critical information to enable better decision-making, ensuring everyone remains aligned and informed. Tune in for a deep dive into the transformative power of vulnerability, connection, and innovative leadership strategies in today's ever-changing world.
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host leadership consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron's delighted to have you join us as he unpacks and shares his leadership experience, designed to help you in your leadership journey. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron.
Speaker 2:Harvey, awesome Good morning. This is Ron Harvey, the Vice President, the Chief Operating Officer of Global Core Strategies and Consulting, which is a leadership firm, and we spend the majority of our time helping leaders stay connected to the people that they're responsible for and responsible to. Leadership really matters, and the world is totally chaotic right now about leadership. We're trying to figure it out and it constantly changes, so we spend all of our time helping leaders be better at what they're called to do, which is take care of their teams. But what we do outside of that is we pause every now and then, once a week, and we record and we bring to you leaders from around the globe, where we call it Unpacked with Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:We let you behind the curtain, we have real conversations and all of our guests come on and nobody knows the questions that we're going to ask, to include me, and so we have fun with it. But we're down to earth, so you'll know that we're human and sometimes we have to figure out the answers. The airplane is in the air and we're figuring it out with you, so we love the partnerships. So I'm super excited today really to bring on Jodi to really talk about what her experiences have been. She's in Baltimore, but I'm really really happy to hear what she's going to share. Not sure where we're headed, except for leadership. So, jodi, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me Awesome, awesome.
Speaker 2:So, jodi, can you give a little bit of background of your organization? I have your resume, but I always ask the guests to share what you wish, to share as much as you wish. But I also want you to tell us about your company a little bit, so people know who you are and you can have an opportunity to showcase your talents and your skills in your business.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much. So I started this company back in the early 2000s as sort of general coaching and facilitation. I'd had training in both. Both were in the direction of what I knew I wanted to be doing more of my corporate experience before that was in operations. So I had helped grow an architecture firm from one to 10 million as we grew from like 10 people to I think we're about 35 or 40 when I left, which was just an amazing experience, learning all the different things to do and not to do in growing a company. But I had developed this interest in facilitation and coaching and so I explored that, got some more training.
Speaker 3:I started this business on the side and over the years it developed where I still believe in coaching. I think coaching absolutely has a place. I still do some coaching when it's the right thing, but I think of coaching after this almost two decades of doing it as more like someone's at point A and they need to get to point B and someone is going to help them along that path and there are times where that is important or where consulting is important. But what I have found over the years is that entrepreneurs know their business better than anyone else. They know it intimately. They know every nook and cranny.
Speaker 3:That's actually part of why it gets hard to make decisions sometimes, because you are thinking about these like millions of variables that exist in millions of different spans of time. You have to think short-term and long-term. It's so much to think through, but at the end of the day you know best, and so it's almost more the facilitation skills that this company now leans more into than coaching per se. I frame it in the sense of decision support because while sometimes I will ultimately throw in some advice or some ideas or guidance or help someone think things through, the first thing I am doing is discerning what is the real issue here. What is actually going on? Is this the right question? They always call with some presenting question whether they're stuck in spinning their wheels, whether they just need to vent and get like burn off some of the energy so that they don't burn their team with all the emotions of a thing Like sometimes is it the.
Speaker 3:am I the mole? Like is it me.
Speaker 2:Is it them.
Speaker 3:Like where's the issue? So I'm always listening for is this actually a business issue? Do they down deep know it's a really bad idea? Or do they down deep know it's a really good idea, but it's just really scary and they need to get clear? Or a lot of times it comes back to their energy.
Speaker 3:Sometimes they're not indecisive at all, they're just exhausted, and managing your energy is such an overlooked thing. And so if you call a consultant or something and you just say like, oh, I have this problem, and they start giving you answers and they don't miss the fact that that's not actually the problem, that you are just so exhausted that you think that's the problem. And so that discernment is the piece that I think people need. And then 90% of the time I am just helping them lock in on what they know, what they see and what they discern that someone needs and that keeps them from getting stuck. And so just helping people move forward and get in touch with what they already know. And then I'm not shy about sharing my experiences or ideas or thoughts or guidance, but only when that is actually what's needed. So that's the format that I do now I do it all on call, because that was the other thing. People entrepreneurs do not need help every second Tuesday at two o'clock.
Speaker 3:They need it when they need it. So I spent years messing around with the model to figure out how I could offer support as needed when they need it, not this like regularly scheduled programming kind of a thing. So that's sort of. I think of it as like an evolution of coaching kind of.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, thank you for sharing. And so, as people are listening, you talk about, you know, being able to have discernment, being able to show up and be in the right place and meeting people where they are without having all the answers. And so if you're listening to us, you know sometimes you do need the person that's on call, that when you need them, you need them and you want to have access to them. So thank you for sharing that, because it is changing. Just like everything else, there's evolution, and so in coaching and facilitating and support, there's an evolution where people normally had a standing schedule, like I would talk to Ron at two o'clock every other Friday or every third Friday, and there may not be anything for you to really want to talk to us about at that point.
Speaker 2:Things may be going really, really well. So it's a misuse or mismanagement of time, not the most effective use of our time. So thank you for sharing that. So, when you think about the journey you've taken, the work that you've done, when you think about the leadership across the landscape today, it's changed drastically. What are some of the major changes you're seeing that leaders are having a tough time making adjustments to?
Speaker 3:I started to say, especially since COVID. I think especially since COVID, people are more aware of uncertainty. You know, covid was a spike in actual uncertainty. I think prior to COVID there was way more uncertainty than people liked to think there was and they actually sort of had a false sense of security and certainty and reliability of like.
Speaker 3:If I do this, then this will happen when in fact from the beginning of time business is way more like improv than it is like having a script. You take action and then you have to navigate the next. You know the whole game changes and then you have to navigate the next thing. So I think what COVID did was it made the uncertainty so much more visible that people now see it more than they used to. They're more aware of the uncertainty. So much more visible that people now see it more than they used to. They're more aware of the uncertainty. So uncertainty, especially with just lots of changing things in the environment. If you had told many leaders that so much of their workforce would be remote, I think we all remember when that first started coming up, people were like there's no way we can work remote.
Speaker 3:Well most people figured it out. Like you had to figure things out. In some ways, I think that was a huge blessing, because it made us realize that sometimes things we thought weren't options actually were options. So there's that, but the increasing uncertainty, figuring out how to navigate things like remote working. You know we could do a whole episode just on that, but I don't think it's the most interesting thing we could talk about.
Speaker 3:But what I find really interesting about the remote conversations is how infrequently it is based on actual facts, as it is just preferences, like if you drill down into it.
Speaker 3:It's just like, well, I like having everybody here, and so I work better when everyone's around. Down into it's just like, well, I like having everybody here, and so I work better when everyone's around doesn't mean that doesn't matter, but you have to kind of right size the variables about what really matters. So there's that, but also, I mean, this isn't what I would say. People don't call and say this, but this is the theme that I have seen is ever since COVID.
Speaker 3:I think most humans, not just because of COVID, but because of other things as well, have a thus far not replenished tank of resilience and energy, like we are depleted in a way that has not yet been refilled, and I think the danger in it is that it's not so bad that people notice it.
Speaker 3:It's not like everyone's slogging around and they can't get out of bed, or they're like sobbing in the corner. Where it shows up, though and this is what I get calls about a lot is people, you know, not managing emotions as well or being more petulant about smaller things that they might have weathered with more ease beforehand, or things that you know you're fine, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine. Something small happens and someone reacts in this like outsized way that they wouldn't have a few years ago, and I just I see that everywhere all the time and it's not an easy fix, because I think we're all doing our best to kind of recharge and refill that tank, but it is not easy. I have not seen sort of large swaths of people do it well. So I think it's just something to be aware of. Is that sometimes people might not be. It's kind of like.
Speaker 3:I don't mean this in a patronizing way at all but in the same way like when a toddler throws a fit and you're like, oh, maybe they're hungry or maybe they're tired, Like it's not really. You don't just jump in and scream at the toddler. You're like, oh, maybe they have an unmet need here that I should at least inquire about. That is the thing that I have seen work, really just taking a quick pause and saying, hmm, maybe they're not feeling their best.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Maybe they're struggling with something.
Speaker 2:So, yes, a lot to unpack there. Though, jodi, when you think about it and I'll go back a little bit for you you talked about usually it's not necessarily it's preference. The leader says, well, I like it that way. Well, that's changed the landscape for leadership, because you know, coming up in my era, whatever the leader preferred, that's what we did, so that's changed. So new leaders that are coming up, or working with these five generations in the workforce, and people that want to work different ways and still be effective. How do leaders really get past their preference to leverage more of what's effective because we like what we like when we like it and we want it when we want it, but that's not as effective.
Speaker 3:It's not as effective, and I had this working theory for a while that I don't know any way to test it, but I had this theory early on that I noticed that the people who are really, really itching to get people back were people who often and again, I'm not sure they would have realized this, but I had seen it these people I knew in person who used their physical presence, either because they were like of a certain size or have a certain like charisma, like maybe they're particularly good looking or there's, they're like, they're charming, or they're like able, like people whose physical presence was actually in an innate part of how they led, how they like controlled a meeting, or they'd walk over to you and loom over and that was part of how you know again, very subconscious things. But they found themselves without those skills, you know, without access to those tools, I should say, because that doesn't work on a Zoom meeting, you know, some of it can a little bit, but not like in person. And so it's a growing of your skill set and it's also just an awareness that, like being really careful to put it in the right box, it's okay to have a preference. You don't have to make up that something that someone else is just going to discount because they know that's not true, like we can't possibly do this, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, if you just spend a year doing it, just fine, that doesn't hold water and your people can't respect a thing that doesn't hold water. So you there's like an alignment an alignment to whatever justification you're using that feels important. But the other piece to it is, too, is just the recognition that some people discovered that they cared about different things than they realized that they did, and that's not actually something you can argue about.
Speaker 3:I had a friend who loved his job, loved the people, loved the company, loved the people, loved the company, loved the work. But after working from home for a while, he was just like I cannot give over three. He drove like almost 90 minutes to work before. He was like and I've been doing it just fine from home, just as successfully, but now they're saying I have to come back. That's three hours a day, times five, and he had had little kids. He was just like this.
Speaker 3:I now realize that's not okay for me and I saw a lot of taking stock and realigning and that is how I think for leaders, like taking stock, adapting, realigning and being very cautious about where you choose to use any kind of force or manipulation. Those things have a place. Like, as a leader, you absolutely it's not about saying like would you guys feel okay about this? Is it okay if we have this rule? It's not that, it's not that. But you do have to realize that people have agency on autonomy and they are going to make decisions based on what's important to them.
Speaker 2:So yes, yes, I mean phenomenal job unpacking it, because those are challenges. When we talk about what side you know for the leaders, what side of the coin do they play? It's this way or that way, or where's the meeting people? Where they are, Because some leaders honestly, I hear some conversations, Jodi that says man, it's an employee's market, Like we've lost all of the things that we used to be able to do. I don't think it's an employee's market. I think there's a balancing of the workforce versus. You know, because if you're trying to win and you're trying to be effective, if the way that you can do it, going forward, is going to help you be effective, why not consider it? I love that you said realign. Can you speak more into the taking inventory or taking stock and then doing the realignment of moving forward Because it is changing?
Speaker 3:Well, this is a model that I pulled from, actually like relational therapy kind of work, which is, if you are working with a couple or any kind of partners they don't have to be romantic partners, but just any kind of partnership and you are framing it in terms of what does person A need or what does person B need, you're inherently putting them in a maybe not confrontational, not in partnership. I mean, you're putting them sort of on opposite sides of the table, as if they're in a negotiation or something, whereas there's this third entity, which is like the relationship. And so if you start with what does the relationship need to thrive and then back end that into what each individual needs to be thriving in that relationship, in a similar way, what matters, and what I'm always listening for, is what does the company need? And when you orient and realign around what does the company need. So, when you're talking about remote or when you're talking about any business issue, if you were thinking about it in terms of winning, like if there's any amount of winning in the way like, well, it's me against them and it's an employee's market, or it's my market, or how do I get them to do what I want? You are operating at the wrong level. It's just you're making it way harder than it needs to be. If you get really clear on what the company needs and that's not like well, the company needs everybody here. No, the company needs, and that's not like, well, the company needs everybody here. No, the company needs something, and that may or may not require everyone to be there or not. But you have to define what is the outcome you are committing to, what is the outcome that the company needs, and then having an honest and thorough and creative and considered exploration of what will do that. I saw some amazing leaders solve some really cool problems and the thing is you don't have to abandon your current thinking. So when you say like, oh well, the company needs for us to all be able to coordinate and talk or something and all the butts that come up, oh, but we're on different sides of the coast, or like this is happening, that we're on different sides of the coast, or like this is happening, that is happening, those just go into the planning like, oh, okay, so we have to have, you know, these hours in the middle where everyone's available, cause that's when everyone's three, you know like, whatever the problem is, and you're like, oh cool, then what ways might we solve that? So we're still getting this thing.
Speaker 3:And I will just add in architecture, where I spent the beginning of my career, there is this concept called means and methods and you're not allowed to, at least for public projects. You can't spec or like a specific window. For instance, you can't say Anderson window 365, blah, blah, blah. You are only allowed to say a window of this criteria that meets these standards of this, is it E rating? I can't remember what the glass thing is for whatever with a wood frame, but the contractor chooses. You can't tell the contractor how to schedule things or what order to do them or how to do it. You can only stipulate outcomes and then the contractor is held to those outcomes.
Speaker 3:I have seen no better way to organize and motivate and align people with where you need them to go than using that Aligning on what does the company need, outcome-based being committed like crazy to that, but less attached to all the little hows of how they do it and letting them contribute to like, but never letting go of that outcome that you are holding tight on, of what the customer has to get or what we have to be able to do as a team. Hold tight to that, but being more flexible about the hows and allowing some of that creativity to come out is what I've seen work a million times better than because otherwise, if you're controlling all the hows, then that's when micromanaging or feeling like you have to watch people or that kind of stuff is where leadership just gets way harder than it needs to be.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that you pointed out. You know, don't try to control the hows and focus on the outcomes, and it's great that the model that you use is, you know, focus on outcomes and get out of the way, because there'll be some innovative, creative ways that will probably get there, sometimes faster or better than you would if you just move out of the way and don't focus on how to get it done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I will say because I always think about someone listening and being like, yeah, but that's not to say that you don't have standard operating procedures. I mean, it's not to say like everyone gets to make up their own forms for it yes, yes, process that's no longer valuable. No longer useful never hurts to question things and say is there actually a better way to do this? In fact, one of my favorite COVID stories was my son going to college the next year and when we went for orientation I was talking to the orientation lady and she said that their check-in process had always been a nightmare. Everyone had to park and go into the gymnasium. You couldn't figure out where and how you're supposed to go, all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:They couldn't do that during COVID, so they created this outdoor tented drive-through system where everyone had times drive through, get your key, then you'd go. You had 20 minutes. They'd be like and it was this whole like organized thing. She said we would have never, ever thought of that had it not been for COVID, and she's like we will never go back. It was a terrible system. So we just never paused to like, question it.
Speaker 3:And I see that all the time, where, when you actually dig into something, no one can tell you why that process exists or why they still do that, and it's like, well, if you took it away, what would break? And if it's nothing, then get rid of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's a phenomenal conversation for leaders that are listening and watching us is like how much do we have? That's just been around forever and we've never thought of a better way to do it, because we're so married to it, we're so convicted to that thing of that's the way it's always been done.
Speaker 3:They're not even convicted to it, it's just they didn't even think about it. You're like well, that's how we do it, that's how we always done it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we were talking earlier on and you talk about leadership and I want to unpack something that you and I were discussing in the green room For leaders, as you continue to get better and you begin to rise to the top in the statement, you know sometimes you know you hear leaders all the time that are struggling at being at the top because they don't have anybody around them. It's lonely at the top. Can we unpack that for a while to talk to leaders that may be in that position, that may be listening, that find it because it is a struggle, depending on what happens and what you're doing in that space? We're talking in the green room, you spend time in that space and that conversation Can you unpack that for a second about when you hear that statement about it's lonely at the top?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's the dumb. I don't know who said it originally or why it became like a statement. To be fair, it can absolutely be lonely at the top. There are less people you can talk to for like 10 reasons. I've actually like mind mapped this out Like some of them are confidentiality reasons. Some of them are just people wouldn't understand Some of them there's like a million reasons that there are a bunch of things that you can't talk to just anyone about.
Speaker 3:But if you let that stand as like something that you just let be a fact, the research on what that does to the bottom line, to your own cognitive capacity, like I think I'm kind of neuroscience nerd, so like optimizing your cognition isolation is terrible for that, most especially if you are someone who is a verbal processor, which you may not know that but like some people just do all their thinking in their head and that's all they need. Other people kind of need to talk it out to get to an answer. If you're a verbal processor, you cannot allow it to be lonely at the top. There's this Seth Godin quote that says if you have a problem you can't talk about now, you have a second problem. So I'm not making it like it's easy to know who to talk to. But you have to find and it's why a great portion of my business exists so I started groups for this reason, so that people can come together and talk about the things that they don't feel like they can talk other places. One of the groups I have is exclusively startup founders of, like tech companies and especially in that world where you're out there, you know, trying to get investors and trying to, you know, do all the regular business things plus the investment side of it. There's this strong feeling in a lot of business, but especially in that industry, where the only thing it's okay to be is like we're killing it. Everything's great and it's just not the case.
Speaker 3:Having a place where you can be honest and vulnerable and ask the hard things or vent or like burn off emotions or brag, I mean that's the other thing. Ceos and founders people don't often tell them they're doing a good job and you can't just say you're doing a good job Like. It has to come from someone who's impressed by like who knows what it took to pull off that thing, and it just gets harder and harder to have people that understand you, that understand your business that aren't involved. So therefore it's like an objective outside person who doesn't have a horse in the race who will keep it confidential. Like that's the whole reason I started.
Speaker 3:The one on one work was for all those conversations and decisions and just the things that you don't have something else to take someplace else to take it. It has to go somewhere and I won't bore you with all the neuroscience, but just trust me, it is not good for the brain to circle around and get stuck in that space. So if it's ever feeling lonely, make that your first priority to solve that problem. It's not a luxury. Like I will have clients say like sorry, I'm venting and my little soapbox on that is like name one place in the world where there is a vent that it does not serve a pretty critical role. Like vents are not superfluous, nonsensical things Like I have a pressure cooker that vent literally keeps it from exploding. Like vents are important. So you need a place where you can vent or sulk or just like get out of things.
Speaker 2:I love it. So if you're listening, I mean, you just drop one of those nice little nuggets that you tweet out. You know, a pressure cooker has a vent for a reason. So if you're at the top and you don't have a vent, be careful of the explosion that may cause more harm. It comes out somewhere.
Speaker 3:It's coming out somewhere, yeah Well, and that's a great way to lose people too. Like your emotional contagion as a leader, like if you struggle to regulate your emotions as a leader. That is something you absolutely have to work on your emotional regulation. If you have a high turnover rate, that is one of the places to look Like how good am I at regulating my own emotions? Do I blast people when I'm frustrated or impatient? I mean, nobody's perfect, we all. The repair of it is more important, but if that's a cycle where you're blasting and then just being like sorry guys, that's not okay and it will show. It will show up in losing people for sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, sometimes it's hard to recover from some things that you constantly do. You mentioned something. As we spend the time we spent so far, I want to tap into one more thing, unpack one more thing with you, because you used the word be vulnerable. Leaders struggle in that space of being vulnerable to let people see us as human beings and that we're not perfect. How do you help leaders that are listening, that are struggling in this space? Can you unpack? How do you help leaders be more vulnerable? Because it's sometimes comes across or has been taught that it's a weakness in times before my era.
Speaker 3:so there's still a struggle there for leaders to be really vulnerable yeah, I think part of it is really taking a look at the like dial knob of what we even mean by vulnerability. So do I mean sharing, you know, going in and being like, oh my god, I'm terrified about sales and it's all gonna to fall apart, and I didn't sleep last night. No, no, like, I'm not talking about just like, but here's what I even mean Like. So, if that's like vulnerability of like a 10, but you are leading at trying to vulnerability at a zero, like here's where there's a lot of opportunity in between those things. So, first of all, if you are somehow imagining it's your job to have all the answers again, you are making leadership harder than it is.
Speaker 3:And't do this inauthentically, but saying like, oh, hey guys, here's the part I've thought through. This seems pretty clear to me. I don't know what the other best thing like, what do you guys think about this? It's okay to not have the answers. Or, when someone asks you a question, saying you know what, hadn't thought of that yet. Let me think about that a little bit. Just think about your own. Here's why I think it's such a funny thing that we even have to talk about it. All of us appreciate that. Like you know. What feels unsafe is someone who pretends like they know what they're talking about. Yes, that makes people feel unsafe. They also don't trust what you say because they know that you will just make things up so that you look like someone who knows what they're talking about. So it makes them question everything you say. So if we just check in on like, what do I appreciate about other people? I appreciate when they meet me in a conversation, as if we both have value.
Speaker 3:So imagining leadership is like you are somehow above other people, misguided. Imagine that you're supposed to have all the answers. Misguided Leadership is literally coordinating help. That's what leadership is. Individual contributorship is being like a great guy with all the answers or, you know, with a bunch of answers. Leading is getting other people to do things, and that means not having all the answers. It's like convening the answers or like aggregating the answers, sourcing, crowdsourcing them from your people, and so vulnerability and transparency kind of go hand in hand.
Speaker 3:The other place that there's a huge opportunity is if you find yourself frustrated that the people you lead aren't seeing something you want them to see or acting in a certain way. I hear this come up a lot and they're like oh, how could they have done that? Like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, do they have line of sight to those variables that actually have anything to do with, like, what's coming to mind? First, it doesn't have to be financial, but if they are like wasting time on something and that's corroding it was an you know a lump sum thing or whatever I'm like do they understand how the project costing works? Like, have you shared that with them? Do they understand that? Have they seen that those hours then reduce profitability? And then that then shows up over here and they're like well, no, we don't share any of that stuff with them. I'm like, if they can't see it, you cannot expect them to be using it as a variable for decision-making.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Like I can't get irritated with my kids for spending money on something If we haven't talked about, like, how that plays out in a different way like you. So let me just back up one sec. When you find yourself frustrated that people are not catching up with something or like they're not thinking the way, a lot of times I'll hear somebody say I wish they thought more like owners. I'm like part of what helps you think like an owner is that you see all the things and therefore you can make good decisions. If they can't see any of that, how can you possibly expect them to be making as, like you know, thoughtful, discerning decisions? That doesn't mean you show them everybody's salaries, like there are levels like everyone always gets very binary on some of these conversations. Again, it's a dial. Like where can I involve them in a decision?
Speaker 3:That's one of the things my architecture firm was amazing at. We'd go away on a retreat every year and they would always give us some sort of thing to start thinking like a leader. It's a whole other thing you have to directly train people on. Like they would say like oh, if we have this amount for bonuses this year, how would we were the associates or whatever. If we had this amount for bonuses, how would you guys distribute it? And then we got to practice thinking at that company level. If no one's ever thought at that level or if you've never explained to them the way like wage rates and then overhead and then profitability works, of course they're going to be irritated when they see what you're billing for them. You know well, they billed the client. You know three times what I get paid. That's not fair. You haven't explained it to them. So anyway, that's where, like vulnerability and transparency, again, it makes it harder for you if you don't lean into those things.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I mean, and for entrepreneurs. Really quick, Jodi, you know. Talk about your team understanding what you're billing for, and the service fees are what the profitability is. If you never explained it, what came to mind when you were talking? It's almost like when you go see your medical professional and they recommend an x-ray or MRI Mm-hmm, Because they can't make decisions without getting the full picture.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:And you would hope that they ask for an x-ray or MRI so they can actually see, because they can't see what's going on inside your body. There has to be some, and so sometimes people don't see what's happening in our companies because we don't give them access to x-rays or MRIs. Yep and I love that.
Speaker 3:I love that metaphor. And it goes the other way around too. Like, if you are it's that assuming best intentions kind of thing If a person or a team is acting in a way that doesn't make sense to you, coming at it with that curiosity of like hey, walk me through what you were thinking here. Like, like, like, that's not the choice I would have made. So before I assume you made a poor choice, share with me how you got to that choice.
Speaker 3:Because sometimes they made a poor choice, maybe because they didn't know something that you knew. That's the other way to uncover that like, oh, I see, I didn't tell you about X, y, z. Had you known that, you probably would have made a different decision. So that's great. But also a lot of times they're like oh, because this is the work you actually do all day long. You saw something I didn't see and so actually I am wrong. And that's the kind of vulnerability If you think leadership is always being right. That is the worst kind of mistake you can make as a leader, a leader who will be like my bad, that was on me, I was wrong. That builds trust and loyalty.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, you almost called me in over there a little second ago Cause you threw that trust word, but I'm going to say that for our next time we meet with each other, that's a whole nother conversation.
Speaker 2:We could probably do an entire episode around that conversation and for those that are listening, you know so, jody. I mean you're in business, you're doing phenomenal, you've had a really, really great career and it sounds as though you're having fun. For people that are listening in the work that you do. What are three things that may be happening or taking place in that organization that says, hey, I can pick up the phone. I was on the unpack with Ron Harvey and Jody was on. What would they be experiencing? That may be worth a phone call at least, or a meeting with you to see if you can be of service to them. What are three things that's happening?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So one is the indecision route. If you spin your wheels a lot or you're getting stuck or you're like laboring over a decision, that's definitely one. I get a lot Like getting to the bottom of like before you even get to like what is the right decision, but like what's getting stuck here. Is this indecision? Is this not enough information? Is this something? I just need courage because there isn't enough information and I just have to close my eyes and take a deep breath and hope for the best. So there's that discernment, because the one thing that is dangerous in running a business is just like slogging around in the muck around a particular issue for too long. Like it's fine not to rush into things, but indecision can really erode progress. So indecision is definitely one.
Speaker 3:A lot of my calls are people issues. It would be great if everyone's so excited to grow with employees, but every employee is a new person. That's a new puzzle and sorting out organizational charts and hires and people and how do I say this and how do we? You know there's so many people issues, so definitely navigating the people thing could also be just kind of like problem solving things. Like you need a second brain that's not involved to knock through something and really say like, are there any blind spots here? Or, like you know, that's probably a third one. But I would also say I kind of joked about this earlier with like am I that mole? But like kind of checking in, especially if you've seen a pattern like is it me, am I the one? That's the issue here.
Speaker 3:You know, like really good leaders are self-aware, but that is a double-edged sword because you do have to discern. You know where is it them and where is it me, and am I being unreasonable or is this an operational issue? Because I do hear sometimes, like sometimes when they're interpersonal issues, it is actually an interpersonal issue. I mean, that would be the obvious answer. But sometimes what I've noticed is there these levels of like. I think of it as like business puberty, yes, and when you're at those like weird friction points I think of in terms of like numbers of people, like where I notice it most like one is when you're like 18 to 24 people, that's always this like weird zone. In that zone, sometimes an operational problem where you've outgrown a process will surface as an interpersonal issue between people, because your operational issue is causing people to be like bone on bone, or it's causing two people to have conflicting priorities or, you know, it shows up a bunch of different ways. So that people versus processes is probably the third one.
Speaker 2:So wow, wow, thank you, thank you. So, with that being said, what's the best way for people to reach out to you or make contact with you?
Speaker 3:Yep, so you can go to at the corecom forward slash listener and I keep that page updated with a bunch of goodies. I have a couple of downloads there. I have a founder's guide for the seven kinds of rest. It's like a guide to recharging. Entrepreneurs are terrible at resting.
Speaker 1:Like so it's not really about rest.
Speaker 3:It's other ways to recharge that are not laying down and taking a nap. They're terrible at that. So it's like other ways to recharge that tank. So that's a free download. I think I currently have a couple of services there that you can actually give a little tryout at 50% off just to test it, because they are newer things. They aren't your standard, you know. It's kind of a newer model to just have a person that you can call to knock something out, and so I know that in the buying decision world, that's, you know, feels a little weird. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, half off, we'll see. So can I add a bunch of those? And I'm always adding more things there. So who knows, it'll be there by the time this comes out.
Speaker 2:Yes, awesome, I mean, which is important. Leaders constantly make adjustments and shifts based on what the requirements are. What's needed, Like I said, what's best for the business and so you and I are not exempt from that as well, as we run our organizations is we have to stay forefront of what's best for the business. I think I said this to someone the other day If it's comfortable, there's probably not a lot of growth happening.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know. I say all the time, like you know, because every solution has a new set of problems.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:And so I have often said like progress looks like new problems, and so if you can't enjoy that, then like you probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur. But I joke with my clients. They're like, well, I have new problems, so progress.
Speaker 1:It doesn't feel like it, but I guess that's what it is.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, thank you so much for coming on and unpacking and sharing all of the nuggets that you shared, and I look forward to the opportunity where you know you get to come back on the show if something new is happening or you're releasing products or services or whatever I'd love to bring you back on. Our goal is to really stay connected to unpack, have real conversations, because people love to hear these conversations that don't come like, they're sanitized and, let me say the right thing, so I love that we get to unpack and have fun, and entrepreneurship can be fun, but don't do it by yourself, and so thank you so much for that. For everyone that's listening, it's been a pleasure to have you as our guest. It's been a pleasure to have you as our guest. Thank you for following us. Thank you for supporting us.
Speaker 2:Again, this is Ron Harvey, with Global Core Strategies and Consulting. You can find us on LinkedIn, which is probably the easiest, fastest way. Just look us up and we respond to everything you know. But for Jody and I, we're going to sign off and tell you thank you for joining us. It's been a pleasure and we hope you find we love serving, we love supporting but, most importantly, we love adding value to you, so thank you for joining us, and then until next time, jody and I will sign off.
Speaker 1:Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron unpacks sound advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are, for the people you serve, because people always matter.
