Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
Top Gun Cockpits to Corporate Leadership
How does a former Navy fighter pilot transition from the top of his game in the military to a leading role in the corporate world? Join us as we sit down with George, a former Top Gun instructor and current COO of an aviation company, who shares his incredible journey from Western Pennsylvania to the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. George invites us into the high-stakes world of Navy fighter pilots and reveals the grit, teamwork, and dedication required to excel in one of the world's most demanding environments.
Ever wondered what it takes to achieve unconscious competence? George breaks down this fascinating concept, revealing how continuous practice and repetition play a crucial role in mastering any skill. Drawing from his experiences as a Top Gun instructor and Blue Angels commanding officer, he highlights the importance of trust, delegation, and the relentless pursuit of excellence. Learn how these lessons translate into building cohesive, high-performance teams that thrive under pressure.
Trust isn't built overnight, and George knows this well. He shares his insights on fostering a high-trust culture, emphasizing character, integrity, and consistent actions. We also explore the importance of effective communication and the role of debriefing in continuous improvement. Wrapping up, George offers a sneak peek into his upcoming book, "High Trust, Leadership, and Teamwork: Building High-Performance Teams," and provides actionable advice for leaders looking to inspire and connect with their teams. Don't miss this episode filled with invaluable leadership lessons and captivating stories from the skies.
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host leadership consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron's delighted to have you join us as he unpacks and shares his leadership experience, designed to help you in your leadership journey. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:Good afternoon, good morning Depending on where you are, what time of day you're listening or watching us on the podcast today, unpack with Ron Harvey. Of course you know you're with me. We do everything live and it's unpacked, so there's no questions in advance. But we own a company called Global Core Leadership and really what we spend all of our time around is helping leaders be better connected to the people that they're responsible for and responsible to. Of course, you know, if you follow me, I'm a veteran and I've always been of service and I enjoy and I love it and it's something that I'm passionate about. And helping leaders figure out that their primary role is to inspire people to be the best they can be, to be great, and I think that's the primary goal for leaders is to help people show up at their very best. And this podcast we answer a lot of questions, we talk about a lot of stuff, so we pause and we always bring someone on every single week.
Speaker 2:I will tell you I've had a lot of phenomenal guests. Everybody shows up and they have fun. I've never had anyone with the background of George and I'm so excited when I'm looking at the background, so y'all will get excited. I don't want to let it out of the bag yet, but hang on with us for 20 minutes in this podcast. I'm sure he's going to share some stuff that I don't even know that he'll share and help make me smarter about it as well. And he has a book coming out and he'll tell us about that as well. But I'm going to pause and I want us to know, and then we'll dive into the questions in the open dialogue. So, george, I'm going to hand you the microphone and I'm going to sit to the side and let you tell us what you want us to know about you.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, thanks, ron. What a pleasure to be with you and your audience today. And a little bit about me. I grew up in Western Pennsylvania, outside Pittsburgh, so I'm a Steeler fan. I went through college under the Navy ROTC program and after graduation was commissioned in the Navy, went off to flight school and I flew fighters in the Navy for 26 years. It was a great ride, loved every minute of it. And then since then, I've been working with various companies and most recently a COO of an aviation company out here in California. So I get to keep flying as well as leading and so forth. And like you, ron, I get the greatest amount of satisfaction in helping folks achieve their potential and seeing leaders and teams come together in a very powerful way.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, love it, and I think that's what we attract to this call are people that actually enjoy serving and helping others and seeing the best come out of it. So, george, thank you for that, thank you for your service. I want to dive in because I'm curious and so, as I was looking at the Bible and I'm reading, you know aviation, you know he flew in the Navy a pilot, you know, for many, many years. And then I read instructor Top Gun, many, many years. And then I read instructor Top Gun. Oh, my goodness, I've never had that on the show. And I've watched the movie and I'm in my head. I see Tom Cruise and all these jets flying around and what they got to go through for that training. And you were instructor at Top Gun. What were some of the best lessons you learned by being an instructor? And you know? So I have a lot more questions, but I'll start there. What are some of the best leadership lessons you learned by being an instructor for Top Gun? You know being a part of that academy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was quite an experience, as you might imagine. In fact I arrived in San Diego At that time. The school was based in San Diego at Naval Air Station Miramar, and I arrived there as a bachelor about a month after the first movie came out. So it was pretty exciting both at work and on Liberty as well. But it was quite an experience to be part of an organization where everybody there was striving to be their very best at whatever their role and responsibility was. So you had to pedal pretty darn hard just to keep up with everybody there. So that was a challenge, but also a wonderful challenge to have.
Speaker 3:And then people ask me about the Top Gun movies and so forth, and while obviously they're not documentaries, so there's some Hollywoodism to it. But a couple of comments that I like to share. First of all, my favorite part of the movies, particularly the first one, is that first 10 minutes of the movie where you get to see the flight deck of an aircraft carrier in operation, and that's really something that you just can't describe. You either have to see it. And they're just such amazing young people that work on that flight deck that come from all walks of life in this great country, from all ethnicities, all religions, and they all come together under a common mission to serve and work together, and this is an opportunity now for them to be able to show their friends.
Speaker 3:Okay, this is what I do for a living, which is pretty cool. That's one piece of it. And then, of course, there's no Top Gun trophy for individual performance. It's very much what you see in there in terms of the students trying to defeat the instructors as they're gradually given more and more difficult scenarios to deal with, and the instructors are playing the bad guys, but the students? The emphasis is on teamwork. It's them coming together in order to work together in order to be successful. And then, after they leave the school, then they go back out to the fleet and they are now expected to train the other members of their squadron in the latest and greatest tactics.
Speaker 2:So, so yeah, yeah, I love that you're sharing that, because sometimes you'll watch it and you think to get to your best, there's some statements If you really want to get there that fast, you know, go by yourself, but if you want to go further, go with the team. So when you think about being an instructor, how much of a mindset shift in that space do you have to make? Because you come in young, you come in pretty cocky, you may come in arrogant, or you may come and think of how good you are and you're really, really good to get there, but how much do you have to shift to make sure that you understand? This is truly about you bringing your best talent to a team versus bringing your best talent for your position.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm sure it's not unlike somebody coming out of either high school sports and going to college and playing division one, or going from division one into the pros. When you show up you think you have a pretty good game. Now you know that you have a lot to learn, of course, and so forth, but you know, the first month or two it's pretty humbling as you go from what I refer to as unconscious incompetence where you don't really know how much you need to learn, and then you quickly become consciously incompetent where you go.
Speaker 3:holy crap, I've got to dig down deep here and raise my game in order to keep up with these guys. So that's sort of an eye opener for everybody when they first get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that you used that too. George, can you unpack a little bit, because I use the language you just used and I don't know if it's always. You know language that's out there, but unconsciously competent. Unconsciously competent. Can you explain, because most times we don't know? But can you kind of unpack, for when you use the language, unconsciously competent or incompetent, Right.
Speaker 3:So this is a fairly well-known framework for achieving mastery in something. But so you start out with you're new to it and you don't really know how much you need to learn, and so you are unconsciously incompetent. And then, as you work into it, you suddenly realize wow, there's a whole lot more here to this than I ever realized. And now you're consciously incompetent. And then you know you work day to day and you get in the repetitions and you work on whatever gaps you have in your skill until at some point you become consciously competent where you can operate. You know I could fly the airplane and I could do what I needed to do.
Speaker 3:But man, it was like you had to have like computer RAM. You had to boot up every time and keep all the procedures and all the information in your head. And then, as you continue to strive and this is where I believe passion really kicks in when you start becoming unconsciously competent where you have done the work and you've had the repetition and so forth. So now it is all back there in ROM and now you can start bringing in other aspects of whatever you're doing, start bringing in other aspects of whatever you're doing. For me, flying, you know, suddenly I could take into account the sun and the weather and the terrain and everything else that came into it in order to really take your game to the next level. And you know, at that point it becomes as much art as it is science. You're able to assimilate so much in order to really get to a very high level of expertise.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, Thank you for sharing and because we use it a lot and I talk about it quite often, but you explained it very, very well. When you think about you going into being an instructor or let's go back to a fighter jet, a pilot what were the leadership lessons you learned? As good as you were to be at that level to depend on your team to ensure that you get off the ground safely and get back on the ground, what was important for you to learn about your team so you can treat them with respect and dignity and value them, even though they're not the ones flying it, but your life depends on it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a wonderful question because for two years during my career also in addition to having the privilege of being a Top Gun instructor, later on, after commanding a squadron, I had the extraordinary privilege of being the flight leader and commanding officer of the Blue Angels. Wow, and to your question, you know I've been flying now over 40 years and the two years I was with the Blue Angels is the only time that I ever did not pre-flight my airplane before I went to fly. Every other time, whether it was in the military or civilian, now I always take a look at the airplane before I climb in and go fly. But for those two years my crew chief he was responsible for pre-flighting my airplane. He was responsible for making sure that the cockpit was set up exactly how I wanted it each time. And when he signed the A-sheet and said this airplane's ready to go, I totally trusted him and I would come out and march down for the show and climb in the jet and we would get out and we would fly those airplanes to the ledge of the envelope and I had complete trust. And that's what I talk to organizations about these days.
Speaker 3:Is you know, how did we go about building and sustaining this culture of really high trust? Because, to your question, every high performance team I've been a part of whether it was at Top Gun or the Blue Angels or flying in a strike fighter squadron in combat the fundamental essence to it was having a culture of really high trust and it wasn't something that was sort of you know nice to have People sort of expect that you put nice people together or good people together and you're going to have a high trust culture. That's not necessarily true. I mean, we can think about sports teams that have you know some amazingly talented players but they don't win because they just don't have that culture.
Speaker 3:And every high performance team I've been a part of trust was not something that was just well, kind of nice to have or expected. No, we recruited for trustworthiness, we trained to build it every day. If you had it, you got rewarded and promoted, and if you lost it and you couldn't get it back quickly, you were either sidelined or gone. We just could not afford to have somebody on the team who we couldn't have a high level of trust in, and I'm sure you had a similar experience in your army service. The same way, I mean, you got to absolutely depend on people.
Speaker 2:And I want to park here, because trust lately seems like it's been violated, eroded at a pace faster than we can get it back. And I would love to talk about this because when you're thinking Blue Angels, for people that don't know the military precision, every second, every move, every turn matters and people watch blue angels all day and they're looking for this fantastic show. So when you become a leader and we're building around trust I ask the question often when I'm in platforms and I would love to have you in a room to talk about what you just talked about, like in person, and do an invite for you.
Speaker 2:I tell people, as a leader, you give away trust. You don't have the time, like when you walk in your crew chief and you got the blue angels. They didn't give you this time Like, hey, you know what, george, you're going to have to trust your crew chief. Well, you automatically extend that and as a leader, I had to earn every ounce of trust. My team say we'll see what you do, but people struggle with like well, ron, what do you mean? Give away trust?
Speaker 3:How often did you have to give away trust and how do you get there? Because it is a struggle and trust is really hard today. Yeah. So to your comment, trust can't be bought, it can't be expected, it can't be demanded, it can't be coerced. It's a gift and it's a gift that's given whenever you earn it.
Speaker 3:So you have to earn it every single day, just as you said, and there may be some situations where you know you get promoted into a new position and so forth, and generally the people that work for you. You know they'll give you the benefit of the doubt initially and you'll have a little bit of a honeymoon and in that frame you need to earn the level of will, break out and separate from the competition in a big way, because people aren't thinking about it in a proactive way. They really only think about it whenever it's been broken or it's lost, and then they're scrambling to get it back. So I believe that when I flew with the Blue Angels and I look back on my experience, I realized there were five things I had to pay attention to on a regular basis.
Speaker 2:So George, for everybody that's listening as he's getting ready hope you're writing this down. He's getting ready to drop five things at the highest level possible. Hope you're writing this down. He's getting ready to drop five things at the highest level possible in Blue Angels Five things he did. This is real behind the curtains. Unpack, so, take out your notes, Get ready to jot it down, because this is going to be a secret recipe that you probably won't hear from him unless he's in the room with you again. So I'm excited that you're going to share. So let me give him the microphone back.
Speaker 3:He's getting ready to drop five things that he did every day. Yeah, and, like I say, you had to pay attention to all five. If I dropped one out, then we were going to have a little bit of a setback. And to your description, ron, you know, to be successful as the leader of the Blue Angels, we fly two feet apart, at three 400, 500 miles an hour at very low altitude in a month, the bridges and the trees and the ridge lines, doing three-dimensional formation aerobatics, six days a week for 11 and a half months of the year, and so, literally, I had to get to a point where my teammates, my wingmen, would enthusiastically come to work every day and put their life in my hands, because there just wasn't, you know, there was such a low margin for error.
Speaker 3:Okay, so, as I look back on that, there were five things I needed to pay attention to to build that level of really high trust, and the first one was character. And for each one of these there was a question that my team was asking about me and, depending upon the answer they discerned, they would make a judgment to what level they were going to trust me. And it's all based on the age old axiom that, in order to be trusted, you must be trustworthy. So the first one related to my character, and the question that they were asking was, very simply do you walk your talk, do you live our shared values, do you live up to your commitments and keep your promises, and so forth and so on, right? The second one was my team. They knew, without a doubt, that I was going to show up to lead them, with a smile on my face whenever the sun was shining and the sky was blue and the air was smooth. But they knew that there were going to be storms. You know, either literally or figuratively. And what they wanted to know was and this all revolves around the second C is commitment. They wanted to know are you going to be with us when the going gets tough? Because you know there's only three realities in this You're either in a storm now, or you just came out of a storm, or you're getting ready to go into the next one. And what they wanted to know was when the storm hits, either literally or figuratively, are you going to show up and bring your A game and be the best leader that you can be to get us through the storm to the other side? Because if you're just going to show up and take names, cast blame, point fingers, keep score, forget about it. That's not what they want. They wanted me to be the best leader. I could be right.
Speaker 3:And the question is, where does commitment come from? And I believe it comes from a very deep, a very clear and a very intense sense of purpose. You and I, when we were in the military, we called it mission, what mission you're on and why it's so important. That's what gets you up off the deck whenever you get knocked down. That's what gets people to rally together whenever the wind is blowing and the rain is coming. That's what keeps us together, is that we have a shared purpose and we're making shared sacrifice to accomplish that purpose.
Speaker 3:The third one is competence, and normally this is what we typically think about whenever we're making a trust decision, particularly at work. You know if you're looking to hire somebody or you want to promote them or assign them to a particular thing you always think about. You know how good are they at, whatever skills they need for the job, what kind of training have they had when they need for the job, what kind of training have they had where they've been to school? All of that and that's very important, there's no question about it.
Speaker 3:But I put it third for a reason because I believe if you don't get the first two the character and the commitment this doesn't matter. And if you can get the first two, if somebody comes in and they walk their talk and they are all in and they have, you know, a basic amount of skill and talent, you can teach them what they need to know in order to be able to, you know, perform at a high level. So every day, when I showed up for the pre-flight briefing with the Blue Angels and we had sit down at the conference table and I'd look around at the five wingmen I was going to fly with, I could see the third question in their eyes and the question was are you good enough to be our leader today, are you?
Speaker 3:better than you were yesterday, but not as good as you're going to be tomorrow, because we don't want to stay here. We want to keep getting better and better and better, and we can't as an organization, we're never going to be any better than you are as the leader, and so the pressure was on me as well as on them. I mean, they also needed to be proven, but as a leader, you got to go first, and so the pressure was on me every day to get better and better and better, because a lot of leaders don't realize this, but I figured it out fairly early on that I, as a leader could have a good day and my team might have an average day, but my team would never have a great day if I, as a leader, didn't have an average day, but my team would never have a great day if I, as the leader, didn't have a great day.
Speaker 3:So I had to work every day to keep getting better and, interestingly enough, I had to keep getting better at this job not my last job, right? How many people do you know who are so good at their last job that they got promoted? And because they're comfortable doing their last job, they keep doing their last job. They keep doing their last job rather than growing into the new job, right? Okay?
Speaker 2:So that's, great.
Speaker 3:The fourth one is connection, and this is the one I think most leaders are missing in 2024, because we're living in a Mach 2 world. I mean, we are moving so fast and we have so much stuff coming at us and we all have these to-do lists a mile long that we're trying to get through that this one drops away. And when I talk about connection, what I mean is that by the middle of the air show season, my team, we got so connected that I could literally change the trajectory of a maneuver in flight by the inflection of my voice on the radios Not what I said on the radios, but how I said the words. They could tell whether I needed to speed the roll to keep us underneath some clouds, or whether I needed to pull harder at the bottom of a loop to avoid a bridge or a ridgeline, or whether I needed to tighten the turn around the skyscraper. I could do all of that and they would stay right with me because they knew that I understood what I was asking them to do. But if, for a minute, they doubted what I was asking them to do, that I didn't realize whatever challenge they were facing and what it meant to them whenever I changed the maneuver. Then, of course, that's when you get hesitation, you get disengagement and separation, right? Because, hey, the boss just doesn't get me, he doesn't realize what I'm putting up with out here, right?
Speaker 3:The fourth question is do they believe I understand them, that I get them, which is a different question than do I believe I understand them, because what I believe is interesting but really not sufficient. What matters is what do they believe? And when they believe that you get them, that you understand you know what their concerns are, what their goals are, what their hopes are, what their ideas are, their recommendations and all of that, then they'll join up and come along. Because what I've found is that people don't need to get their way all the time, but they do need to be heard. And we as leaders have to slow down and take the time to engage with our folks so that they feel heard. Right.
Speaker 3:And that's the challenge. You know Stephen Covey has it right when he wrote that you can be efficient with things, but you can't be efficient with people. You have to take the time right. And so that's number four. And then the fifth and last one is communication. And if the fourth question is do they believe I understand them. Communication. The question is do they understand me? Am I transmitting in a way that they can understand? Am I transmitting often enough so that they get the message that I'm transmitting? Because too often for leaders, the challenge with communication is the presumption that it's occurred right.
Speaker 3:I mean you say I sent the email, they get it. I gave the speech, they get it. I had the difficult conversation he gets it. They don't get it, at least not yet. I mean, if you think about it, how many times do you have to hear a new song before you get the lyrics? And you, as the leader, are probably much closer and have thought a lot more about whatever topic it is you're transmitting, and so the team needs to hear it in multiple ways a consistent message over and over and over again until they actually get it. And you know, in aviation, we have obligated to repeat back to the controller exactly the words that they said, so that we know that it's confirmed, that there's no misunderstanding. And so we need to do the same thing out in the business world. We need to check in to make sure that the messages that we're transmitting are the ones that have been heard, because too often they hear something different and therefore there's misunderstanding. So those are the things I had to pay attention to.
Speaker 2:Lovely Hope you took notes I did. When you think about it, I love a couple of things that you said that I want to unpack. You know, in our time we have left One you said earlier you recruit for trust. I don't think I've heard anybody say that Like on the podcast. I don't think I've ever said that. I think I thought it but I've never said it out loud. We we recruit for trust.
Speaker 3:Yeah, trustworthiness, what does?
Speaker 2:that look like. I mean, how do you effectively recruit for trust?
Speaker 3:Well, interestingly enough, when we were selecting our replacements with the Blue Angels and very similarly with Top Gun as well, because both organizations are unique in the Navy in that they pick their own reliefs other than the leader, but for the wingmen and so forth, and so if we had two candidates who were just about equal in skill and so forth, the fundamental question was you know, which one of these guys can we trust more? Which one of these guys or gals will come in here and accept the constant, daily constructive feedback in order to continue to get better and better and better? Do they have a learner's mindset, right? So, I think, in terms of recruiting for trustworthiness, just think of the five things that I just showed you and ask yourself about these people, you know, does this person walk their talk? Will they show up here and work and will they be all in? Do they believe in the mission that we're on, or are they on their own mission and they just want to be here for the paycheck, right?
Speaker 3:And then how good are they? What's their skill level? And do they have a learner's mindset where they are constantly seeking feedback on their own performance so that they can continue to improve and get better and better and better? And then are they the kind of person that will be open to the connection piece you know and be part of the team? And finally, you know, how well do they communicate? Can I understand what they're saying?
Speaker 3:Because how many people I've been to meetings where I come out of the meeting and I ask somebody I didn't understand a word this guy said, because it was all word salad right, and he's rambling and talking in very vague terms and his thoughts aren't very organized and you go. I have no idea what this guy really means. So that's sort of the basics. You know. If you just look at those five things and you just have to do the due diligence, you have to take your time. You know we had a saying that you hire slow and you fire fast and the hiring slow piece means that you take your time and you get to know the person and you ask those five questions and you get a good idea.
Speaker 2:Two more questions for us. George, I want to unpack that One is you've been in a lot of high performing and excellence is the standard non-negotiable. You got to be great at what you do.
Speaker 2:So, I think in our society, people get frustrated Like excellence is the standard. I mean across the board, whether it's in your personal relationships, whether it's running the business, whether it's flying the aircraft, whether it's serving the military. There should be an expectation that you're going to be excellent. That doesn't mean you're always there, but that should be an expectation. Yeah, how do you, in that environment, make sure you do self-care? Because leaders are not taking care of themselves.
Speaker 3:No, that's a very good one. I think for most of us those of us that are really energized and motivated and have set high standards for ourselves and so forth the challenge isn't working harder. The challenge is getting recovery. Stress and working hard is not the enemy. The enemy is chronic stress or the absence of recovery. So people need to turn it off every now and then, you know, and get some rest and get some sleep and take a vacation. Because, human beings, if you use electricity as an analogy, you know we're not DC, we are AC Beings. If you use electricity as an analogy, you know we're not DC, we are AC. Everything about us is an oscillation, whether it's our, you know sleep rhythms or heart rates or all of that. It's all oscillation. Right, when you spend money out of your checking account, you got to reinvest back in. So I think that's the best place to start.
Speaker 2:Self-care, yes yes, yes, I love it, and you're hearing this from someone that at a pivotal level. I mean fighter jet pilot, blue angels, you name it there's a high expectation that you deliver, but there's also systems built in for recovery.
Speaker 3:Yeah, our schedule was really challenging but we always built in. You know, monday was a day off and you did not come into work. You did not do work, you just relaxed and hung out with your family and got recharged to get ready to sprint for the next week. And even in the maneuvers you know the air show we're behind the crowd setting up the next maneuver and the formation spreads out a little bit, not a lot, but at that level of fitness, if you will, mental concentration just spreading out a little bit gave them recovery. That then they could, as we would turn back in for the next maneuver, they would tighten it up literally within a foot or two of each other and we would get after it.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, Every little break counts and you want the chance to recover. You asked the question. I love it. Are you good enough to be our leader today? I think I've asked. The question is why should I follow you? Always ask, why should people follow me? But I don't know if I've ever asked the question are you good enough to be my leader today? And you're asked that question every day because you got to be better than you were yesterday. That's right. That's a different question. How do you embrace that? Because that challenges you, pushes you. How do you help leaders that are listening to us today to ask that question in a healthy way, with the expectation that they have to be better tomorrow?
Speaker 3:be in the jet as an individual pilot as well as a strike leader and all of that right. Is that it is sacred in the fleet as well as at Top Gun and the Blue Angels is that every flight, we have a debrief and we deconstruct whatever happened, and whether it's training or combat doesn't matter. We're going to have a debrief and we're going to ask ourselves, first of all, what happened, because everybody's got a different perspective on what went on out there, right, and everybody's got a different perspective in whatever meeting you're in, because everybody hears a little bit something different, right? So the question is you know what happened and everybody in the debrief that was in the flight contributes to constructing that picture about what happened.
Speaker 3:And you know the leader will say here's how I saw the event went. And then other people will chime in Well, actually, what happened was going on over here, or whatever, and they fill in the gaps. Now you've got the picture. Here's what happened. There's no judgment or anything, it's just what happened, right? And then you talk about okay, based on what the plan was, based on what our objectives were, what are the things that didn't go as well as we would have liked and what were the things that went very well, because you want to reinforce the good as well as point out, you know, the challenges or the gaps in the performance. And then you talk about okay, what do we need to do tomorrow to get better, to fill in those gaps, so that we perform better and we don't make whatever mistakes we may have made, right? And then, how can we share what we just learned with the rest of the team so that they can benefit from our experience? And it's through a process like that that you get better, individually and collectively. And two thoughts on that.
Speaker 3:You know, as the leader, I had to set the example for the debrief. First of all, we were going to have one for sure. There's always a reason not to have it right. We're all so busy, right, but how much better would you be and how much would you save if you kept learning from every experience? So, every event in the planning stage, we would schedule the debrief for after the fact. We didn't just try to figure it out. Okay, afterwards. Okay, now let's have a debrief. No, no, no, it was in the planning, just as like anything else in the execution of the mission. We're going to have a debrief and here's what each of you are expected to bring to the debrief so we can have the best possible conversation, to be the most effective, and then, as the leader, I would lead the debrief, and with the Blue Angels. You'll find this interesting.
Speaker 3:The tradition with the Blue Angel debrief is that the leader starts and I will list any significant mistakes that I'm aware of that I made during that flight. And what it does is you know. First of all, it sets the example right that we're all human, we're all going to make mistakes. Now, as long as it's not negligent, as long as you prepared as well as you could for the flight, as well as you could for the flight, then any mistake is you know, as long as you own it and accept it and you're committed to not making it again. Everybody's fine with that. So it sets the right example that we're going to make mistakes and what that does is then that encourages the wingman to do this.
Speaker 3:You know to fess up also, and if I as the leader to do this, you know to fess up also. And if I, as the leader, if I'm making a mistake and I don't know it, then we got an issue right, and so it's very helpful for the wingman to know what my own awareness is of my performance. If I am not aware of something that I'm doing, you know they have the authority in the debrief. I mean, I want the candor. I want them to tell me hey boss, when you're making this turn for the Delta role, do you realize what you're doing here? Oh no, I didn't realize. Okay, I'll fix that for tomorrow, right, and if I'm making a mistake and I won't admit it, we got another problem, because who wants to follow somebody who is unwilling to admit their mistakes?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. Trust is broken and you're in trouble.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And then we go around the room and everybody does the same thing. They fess up as to what mistakes they made and they own it, and then in the remainder of the debrief we're going to talk about that as we show the videotape and so forth, and we'll talk about OK, what do we need to do differently tomorrow?
Speaker 2:I love it. I mean, I'm learning so much about this because my question was you answered it Okay. How do you create when you do the debrief?
Speaker 2:it's the leader's responsibility to make it safe to have a real debrief and you start with you fessing up and I tell people, I say, look, if you make a mistake, fess up and clean it up and don't do it again. The most important thing is to fess up, clean it up and don't do it again and get feedback. But I love that you say we seek feedback. We can't be great without feedback and we go to the debrief as a part of the plan. So, leaders, if you're listening, if you want to be better as a leader, put a debrief into everything that you do and you go first. You go first Because that creates safety.
Speaker 3:That's right. When we walked into the debrief room, only the people that were involved in the event were in the debrief room. We didn't want to have, you know, friends or family or any distraction or anything that would not allow for total candor and honesty in the debrief and honesty in the debrief. And you know, even though we were a military organization, when we walked into the debrief room we figuratively left our rank out in the hallway.
Speaker 3:We went in there as teammates. Now, you know, of course, everybody. The norm was everybody had to be respectful of everybody else there, but I wanted to hear from everybody and likewise, it wasn't just expected that you would voice your opinion about whatever we were talking about. It was your duty. We needed everybody's ideas. Suggestions concerns everything on the table as we're trying to make a decision and evaluate our performance.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love it. I mean phenomenal, I mean all kinds of nuggets. If you're listening and you're still with us. As George went through, he gave us a couple of Cs here for us. So character, commitment, competence, connection, communication and the mindset to get feedback. The mindset and it's important that you can't get better without feedback and there's an expectation that you ask for it, so you should seek it so you can get better. George, I know you're writing a book and it's going to get released and I'll definitely bring you back on because I would love to be able to do that. Can you tell us a little bit about you? Know, without giving away any of the secrets, you're getting ready to release a book here soon. When is the book being released? Do you have a title already.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the title is High Trust, leadership and Teamwork Building High-Performance Teams, and it contains what I just described for everybody and goes into detail and then gives practical ideas on how you can every day build your character, commitment, competence, connection, communication that's the idea.
Speaker 2:Yes, love it. Thank you for sharing so much information. The part that I loved as I listened and watched you you kept reinventing who you needed to be as a leader, because it changed from level to level, organization to organization and people, like you said, they want to be good at their last job. Leadership requires you to reinvent yourself every day because people are expecting you to be better, because the world I love that you said mock to we're in a Mach 2 world. I'm going to use that. Hey look, because we are moving that fast and you have to reinvent yourself. So, leaders, if you're listening, the leader you were yesterday was great for yesterday. It's not good enough for tomorrow. We're just moving too fast. So constantly learn. Have a learner's mindset. George, if anybody wanted to reach out to you, you're going to release the book. What's the date for the release? Do you have it already?
Speaker 3:We don't have a hard date yet. The manuscript is with the editor for some final things. So I'm hoping that no later than the 1st of September, maybe earlier if things go well. But for right now I'm shooting for 1 September.
Speaker 2:Awesome. I'll put that on my calendar to be able to invite you back as soon as it is and stay in contact with you. Is there anything, as we wrap up, that you would leave the audience with? Is there something that comes to mind that you haven't said that you want to share to help leaders just get better? I mean, you've been at a very high level and you're still doing great in aviation. Is there anything that you would leave for the audience just to take away from this call?
Speaker 3:We were talking earlier about this, the four phases of mastery, right From unconscious incompetence to and your comment just now about needing to be continue to learn and so forth and what happens is, you know, we get to that final phase of unconscious competence, where you are just you got it dialed in, you know what you're doing and you are winging it and then something changes Either the market changes, the environment changes, your job changes, whatever technology right, and we have to be willing to go from that unconscious competence back down to unconscious incompetence become a learner again and work our way back up.
Speaker 3:Too many guys they become really good at their job and then something changes and they are unwilling or don't know enough to get back down to becoming a beginner again.
Speaker 2:Yes, love it, love it. And what I hear in all of that, george, how do you make sure that you stay very, very humble and hungry? Because when you're here and the market changes, if you're not humble, you have this expectation like don't they know who I am? Don't they know my title? Don't know the way I've been? Don't they know how good I am? Yes, yesterday. But stepping back down to you become unconsciously or consciously incompetent. Yeah, that you know it's changed and you know. You don't know, but you don't accept the fact that you don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it's something that you just have to be willing to suppress that ego and to do what's necessary, because it's uncomfortable to learn something new. You're going to make mistakes and you got to let go of the ego about you know that you're afraid to look bad in front of so-and-so. In fact, they'll give you credit for trying hard to learn something new, and I could give your listeners a question that will help them.
Speaker 3:Yes, give it to us Get a fix on to what degree they have a curious learner's mindset to always be getting better, and that question is simply when was the last time you did something for the first time? When was the last time you did something for the first time? And you're willing to hang it out and look awkward, to not be perfect, but that's the first step to gaining new capability, to gaining new competence, to gaining new skill and mastery.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it is very, very tough, but I tell people you know, anything worth having is going to challenge you and that's where your growth is happening. I love that question and I'm probably going to post it on social media. When was the last time you did something for the first time? That's where the growth happens. So, for everyone that's listening, george is going to have a book come out. He definitely. He's out in California doing phenomenal stuff. Love his bio. Are you on LinkedIn? Can people look you up on LinkedIn? Absolutely, yeah, that'd be great. Yes, awesome, awesome. Do you travel and do speaking? Or is that something that, as you're looking at where you are now, no-transcript the years, and I love that because those experiences are different I would love to be able to connect with you and find out. You know how do we leverage you coming into and supporting and helping our leaders grow differently. But how do people reach you other than LinkedIn? Is there a way for people to reach you if they're interested in having you on a podcast or bringing you in as a speaker?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. My website is georgedomcom wwwgeorgedomcom. They go there. I have a bunch of material there as well, and you can get ahold of me and I'd love to. I've spoken to organizations all over the country, from USDA meatpacking plant managers to the global sales team at Twitter, and they all get it. Everybody's trying to get better and to lead their teams more effectively, and I just love to see when that happens. It's really, really cool.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So georgedomcom. That's easy for us to remember. Thank you for sharing and for everyone that's listening, thank's easy for us to remember. Thank you for sharing and for everyone that's listening, thank you for hanging in with us. Hopefully you took some really really great notes. We will be releasing this for you to get better. Our goal is to really, you know, pour it to other people for them to be really, really good at what they do. You know we believe in service, so thank you for joining us again. This is Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:I'm on with George today and we're getting ready to sign off. Please follow us. Please tell your friends to connect with us, share information and if you know someone that wants to reach out to George, please tell them to reach out to him on his website. If there's anything that we can do, you can reach out to either one of us at any given time. We'd love to be able to connect with you, be of service to you. If there's a major company that's listening you're looking for a speaker or someone to, both will be excited about the opportunity to support you and your organization to grow your leaders. So thank you all for joining us. Thank you for hanging in with us. George and I will sign off and we hope and wish you a great day and successful day in your role of leadership.
Speaker 1:Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron unpacks sound advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are, for the people you serve, because people always matter.
