Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
Leadership Restoration Through Trust with Kory Kogon
Trust forms the foundation of effective leadership in today's multi-generational workplace, where retention has become the new recruitment and development opportunities matter more than ever before.
• Leadership today requires balancing high expectations with genuine care for people
• "Retention is the new recruitment" in today's talent war environment
• Development opportunities create loyalty even when employees eventually move on
• Trust levels in organizational leadership are at historic lows according to research
• The pandemic revealed which organizations had built strong trust foundations
• Effective feedback requires leaders to go first in both giving and receiving
• The "Four Cores of Credibility" include integrity, intent, capabilities, and results
• Confronting reality with respect builds rather than damages relationships
• Mentorship plays a crucial role in leadership development
• Regular one-on-one meetings create essential connection points that shouldn't be canceled
Connect with us on LinkedIn and visit www.franklincovey.com to learn more about leadership development opportunities, including our newly updated Six Critical Practices for Leading a Team.
Connect with Ron
Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
Learn more about Global Core Strategies
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Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host leadership consultant, ron Harvey of GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:Good afternoon everyone. This is Ron Harvey, the vice president, the chief operating officer for Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Back with you again for another another episode of Unpacked with Ron Harvey, where we invite guests from around the world to talk about real leadership experiences and some of the challenges and things that we're learning in our own professional careers or exposure and experiences. So I'm always excited to be able to bring something to you that will make a difference in your role and responsibilities as a leader. So excited to have Corrie with us and you know I always invite our guests to do their introduction for two reasons I don't mess it up and who knows how to talk better about themselves than the person themselves? So I'm going to invite Corrie and hand her a microphone and get out of her way and let her introduce herself.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to invite Cori and hand her the microphone and get out of her way and let her introduce herself. Thanks, ron, and hello everybody. So I'm Cori Kogan. I serve currently as the vice president of content development for FranklinCovey, one of the largest leadership companies in the world, and I live in Tucson, arizona. I was originally born and raised in New York. Originally born and raised in New York, so I am blessed to be able to work with people and teams around the world, around their leadership, productivity, things like that. I have a very strong business background, formerly an EVP of Worldwide Operations for a global franchise organization, so I get to bring the best of real life business to the principles of FranklinCovey to help teams and organizations everywhere.
Speaker 2:Thank you, corey. I mean thank you for being here, Thank you for taking the time out and sharing a little bit about who you are and, as everybody knows, as we do the podcast, we will promise you we'll talk about leadership, but I would love for us to, at the end of the day, as we go through the conversation, I always I'm pretty transparent about what I've done well, what I haven't done well, but you're in one of the largest organizations that spend a lot of time in leadership development. Let's dive in a little bit. What are you noticing the shift? The pendulum is swinging and shifting with five to six generations in the workforce. What are some of the things that you're recognizing in the work that you do with so many people across the globe around?
Speaker 3:leadership. Well, you know I consider myself a young baby boomer. Well, I am a young baby boomer as it is. So I, you know I come from that perspective and you know this gift of my working with people all the time. I remain open-minded to all of the shifts and changes and how I can be better at, you know, with whether it's my age or my style or whatever it might be desire to be developed, to move up faster, to take on more and more responsibility when given the opportunity and I know not everybody feels that way about some of the younger generations, but that's what I've seen that if given half a chance and given the roadway to do it, they will develop. So I find that when they're looking for who they should work for, they're going to look for an organization where development is part of it, whether it's for their current job, for a future job within their company or even being developed for their career, to be able to move on to the next thing.
Speaker 3:Because I think we've all known this has been out there for a while People aren't staying at organizations as long as they used to. Not everybody's staying for 10, 15 years anymore. It's become the norm stay for a couple of years and move on, and those organizations that are really working with their people to help with that as an assumption of where people are going to be attracted to go to. I think the other thing is just, you know, the shift in technology and technology use and as the younger generations are coming up and are native to not only digital, but now the need for AI skills and people coming in with AI skills and some organizations requiring it, I think that's a giant shift that we have to be thinking about as well. So those are a couple of ones at least, as the newer generations are coming into the workplace.
Speaker 2:Wow, corey. I mean you brought a lot to unpack which is really intriguing and interesting, especially from the organization that you're in, you know and the work and the people you get exposure to. I want to unpack a little bit about. So what we're telling organizations, based on your conversation here, is how do we help organizations be prepared that you're not going to have someone 10 to 15 years anymore and you're going to have someone that's looking for development more than it used to be money? I think money is relevant, but it's not the most important thing from my exposure and experience. How do you help organizational leaders be prepared for that without being frustrated about it?
Speaker 3:Well, it's a mindset change, you know, because everybody wants it. I mean there's a talent war in the biggest way it's ever been. We're not having babies the way we used to. You know it's flatlined in population. So we like to say that retention is the new recruitment. So business unit leaders, ceos, everybody in organizations really need to do the best job to retain their people as long as they can. So it's not a given that people are going to leave in a couple of years. But leaders should be striving to figure out methods and ways that people think twice before leaving.
Speaker 3:And I just want to make a point about the money. People will leave for money. If they are not appreciated or don't feel like they have a purpose in an organization, it becomes the only currency for them to. You know to well, I'm going to go to that company because they're going to pay me more and my boss doesn't even know I exist here, they'll go. But when somebody in an organization feels wanted and trusted and valued and they see how what they do connects to the you know the mission and the vision of the organization A lot of times, not to say they won't leave for money, but, to your point, it becomes a lot harder to say, hey, that other company. It's a substantial raise, but I don't know. I don't know if it's worth it to not have the kind of culture that we, you know that we have here. So there you go yes, have you?
Speaker 2:have you found on your career in in the work? And it's changing fast. Have you found how do organizations pay more attention to the, the upward mobility? Because you know people get questions. They want a corner office, they want vp, they want um a lot faster than we did. We were taught to stay 30 years or 40 years and just wait your turn. That's not the generation, that's not even the mindset today. Wait your turn because there's some really young people that are really good and and there are some people that are, you know, more seasoned, that have kind of had their best years already and don't pass the baton fast enough. How do you balance that out? Don't don't promote faster than you should, but don't hold on longer than you should that out.
Speaker 3:Don't promote faster than you should, but don't hold on longer than you should. Well listen, I'm a baby boomer. Should I get out? I'm not ready to get out, I'm not ready to go anywhere yet.
Speaker 3:I'm just being candid with you. And so there might be people in the organization like no-transcript. It means what I said before. Some people will be developed and take those skills to another company and speak nicely about the company they came from, which is, you know, really helpful too. So there's no magic bullet to that. But the fact that somebody feels like somebody cares about helping them grow is more and more important. And I got to tell you and people that know me, I am very candid, very honest and I'll put the mirror up any time of day. I could be one, and I was.
Speaker 3:I've been in executive leadership for many, many years. I have to work at it every, every day. But I could be one of those people that says you know, just do your job. It's so much easier to be a bad leader. It's just like just do what I tell you, just do your job and leave me alone, right, kind of thing. But of course that's not going to win you any points and it's not the right thing to do, principally and I'm a principled person.
Speaker 3:And but when somebody feels like you're paying attention to them, even though there may not be opportunity right now, or they are in a small organization when they feel that I'm interested in their growth and helping them develop, while also, by the way, getting results. I don't want to forget the result side. This is not all about being nice and helping people. You got to do the job, you got to get results. So there's this balance there around it. But as long as people feel that way, then if there's an opportunity, they know you're trying and there's agreement too. Listen, if there's not something here, you know I get it. You know we're getting you ready for the next thing in your life. That will create stickiness too, where they may stay longer and you know to see if it plays out in their favor and maybe it won't.
Speaker 2:Wow, I love the approach that you're taking. You mentioned I want to unpack a little bit. You know about holding people accountable while at the same time being kind. I guess is the way I would say it, and some people struggle at that. How do you make sure that you do hold people, because results are important, but it's not just results that are important. There's more to the workforce. Today We've got to be pretty agile as leaders. Can you speak to how agile we have to be and what does that look like today versus when you and I may have become in our first role of leadership? It's changed drastically.
Speaker 3:We are spending a lot of time. I'm in the middle of a body, of re-releasing a body of work, or what we call the six critical practices of leading a team, where we actually spent a little more time on it. Because you know the world of leadership has swung and we know. You know it's not just about getting results If that's all you're interested in, you know but leaving bodies along the way to get some short-term results, you're going to lose your people and that's not sustainable. You're going to get the short-term results, but what does that mean for a year or two from now? So we know that that doesn't work.
Speaker 3:Stephen M R Covey, who is, you know our trust. You know the world's expert in trust in his work around trust and inspire calls it. You know command and control to trust and inspire. So you can't just go for results. On the other hand, I and we at Franklin Covey have seen over the years it's swing a little too far to.
Speaker 3:Your team needs to be engaged and they need to be happy and we've got to be concerned about their wellbeing. All of that is true, but there has to be a balance. We want people engaged and we say the height of that is true, but there has to be a balance. We want people engaged and we say the height of engagement is what we call creative excitement. They're creative excitement, they want to show up, they want to innovate, whatever great, and are you getting results from them? Because you can have them engaged. But if they're not getting the results? And so we, in our new body of work, we, we say that a leader needs to have the mindset of if I expect a lot, I, I need to care a lot so that we set expectations and you know that we realize we have we got.
Speaker 3:We have expectations, we have stretch goals. We have a big mission, big vision. There's a lot going on in the world, but if I'm going to get there sustainably, to achieve sustainable results, then I need to care a lot about my people. And if you think about the differences, I can expect a lot and not care, and we're back to short term results. I can care a lot and not expect a lot, and I'm now a people pleaser, which doesn't work. I can be neither of those. I don't expect a lot, I don't care a lot, and you're sort of an absentee leader.
Speaker 3:So we say great leaders are the ones that expect a lot and care a lot. So we get this balance of we're not developing leaders to create a bunch of happy people. We want them to be happy people, we want them to be happy, we want them to well be being. By the end of the day, a company is in business to achieve a result, whether you're a non-profit, government or corporate. So that's that's the new, that's that's how everybody should be going into it, with the outcome sustained performance over time. I love it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I love that you're pointing out, for everyone that's listening with the outcome sustained performance over time and retention. I love it. I mean. I love that you're pointing out for everyone that's listening like your new recruitment is retention. I mean yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean. So I love that you're saying that. I want to lean in a little bit and unpack for you, because I follow the books, I bought the books and I talk about the levels of trust, but across our society there is a low level of trust, I mean, and we're struggling as a society with trusting that people will do what they said they're going to do and follow through consistently, versus just on a good day. How do we close this gap that's showing up where people don't trust their bosses and their bosses don't trust their workers?
Speaker 3:and their bosses don't trust their workers. You know, I believe, if you know the PR firm Edelman, the Edelman Trust Barometer comes out once a year and I think the one that came out in January suggested and don't quote me on this that trust in leaders is like lower than it's been in a really long time.
Speaker 3:Leaders, of organizations versus know and things like that, uh, which is unfortunate because the pandemic actually taught us a lot about trust. So let me just talk about stephen m r covey for a moment, who, again, is the world's expert in trust, wrote the book speed of trust, um, and a dear friend of mine, uh, when he would speak prior to the pandemic, or I or anybody that worked with that body of work, we would beg people to see trust as a currency, as the foundation that you can't do anything without trust. That people would think trust was a soft, fluffy thing. He would put a slide up that was like a kitten. That's like this is what you think of you know, a cute kitten and this is what you think of it. But it is a hard currency and the pandemic taught us that because when everybody went home whatever if you were a low trust organization and people were working remote and all of that their organizations fell apart. Those that had high trust bonds and connections between them did really well.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, we seem to be at a place again with as low trust out there, for whatever reason, and it is the leaders of the organizations that need to lead out on. How do they behave in ways that show trust, talking straight, they're demonstrating respect, they are transparent, they're confronting reality, they're listening first, they're practicing accountability. These are some of the behaviors that go with it. It can be tangible and it's the most important, I think, differentiator in organizations. When people are able to say yes, I feel trusted. And I'll just say one clue that one thing that leaders could do with their people, whether they're remote or in the office, is declare their intent, because there's so many assumptions flying out there and when somebody says, well, what do they really mean in that meeting?
Speaker 1:Well, what are they?
Speaker 3:really trying to tell me. That means that leaders aren't being clear and they're not declaring. Let me tell you why we're having this meeting. Let me tell you why we're having this conversation so people stop freaking out so long. Answer to your short question. Trust is foundational in today's world around agility, around all of the changes we're going through, whether economic, whether technological whatever out there today.
Speaker 2:I love your long answer, so I'm going to keep my question short, because the purpose of this podcast is the more I get you talking, the more value it adds. So I don't want to be the, so please continue with the long answers. I love it. I want to unpack a little bit. So what organizations? Being that? We know that the numbers are coming out and then there's a, there's a low level of trust. You know that we assume is and we're reading. What have you learned in the body of work that you do within the Colby firm? How do people rebuild trust when they have violated it? As a leader, if I'm in an organization and I've done something that I've lost the trust of my team, do you have steps to help people close that gap?
Speaker 3:Yes, a lot of steps, but what we're talking about is restoring and extending trust. So as part of it, I mean the real pillars of the workaround with Speed of Trust is building trust, extending trust and restoring trust. So, and we have what we call the four. So I'll start with the four cores of credibility. So the four cores of credibility really is sort of the inside-out approach that we all should be asking ourselves Am I being seen by others as somebody with high integrity?
Speaker 3:Is my intent really clear? Am I being seen as capable and do I have a track record of results? So those are the four cores of credibility that, before I open my mouth in a conversation with somebody, is this how these people see me? Because if they don't, if they don't see me as somebody with high integrity, I need to work on that. I need to be self-aware enough to work on that. The point I was just trying to make before intent If my intent is not clear and that could be accidental, right, I'm accidentally creating circumstances with people like what did she mean? Or she has a mad face on today. What's going on? When I concentrate, my face looks mad to people.
Speaker 3:So they're looking at me they're like what's up with her today? You know kind of thing, and I have to like talk to my face and I need to be clear no, no, I'm working on something. This is not about you. I might not have capability in something, that I'm trying to be the smartest person in the room, and that's not good either. So these four cores of credibility everybody in an organization should be working on Am I seen as somebody with high integrity? Is my intent really clear? Am I seen as capable in the job I'm supposed to be doing, and do I have track record results to stand behind it, both for past performance, present performance and to be able to predict my future performance as well? So there's that as the base. The next piece of it to your question. So if I'm working on building my credibility, people can look at oh boy, corrie, you know she's credible, you know, but she doesn't trust me, or I don't know if he trusts me.
Speaker 3:Well then we need to restore trust and possibly extend trust. And with extend trust, which people like? Well, it's really hard. You know, they disappointed me in the past. I don't want to delegate something to them, but with extend trust Stephen calls it smart trust, extending smart trust. You know we don't want to extend trust blindly, like, well, you know, just whatever. And we don't want to, you know, not trust them at all. But how do we have the conversation, using what we call 13 behaviors of high trust, to say, hey, let me declare my intent, I want to be able to extend trust with you. Here's what that. Here's the situation, here's what it looks like. I'm going to confront the reality of what went wrong before and we'll practice accountability together to try it again. So leaders need to go first in extending trust, not holding grudges on things that maybe they got disappointed on in the past.
Speaker 3:The other thing is restoring trust. So, you know, maybe somebody lost trust in me and what am I going to do using the 13 behaviors of high trust? You asked about the tools I'm going to work on. You know my cards on the table, as we say, the behavior cards on the table, and I'm going to, you know, apologize, I'm going to demonstrate respect around it. I'm going to ask you know how we can together, how I can fix it, how we can work together and practice the accountability of checking in. You know I want to check in with you, ron, make sure that you feel like I'm on the right track and then go on from there. So I'm going to proactively restore trust. So build, extend, restore trust are key things that leaders should go first on, and the tools are in the workshop. To you know, be able to help people use their trust cards and their trust behaviors. To you know, to extend and restore trust. It's the most important thing in the world today.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you you did a phenomenal job. I'm like wow, she's just walking through it and you can tell not only is this something that's regurgitated, it's something you believe, it's showing up automatically in the conversation. So when you think about I mean you've used it a couple of times on here, corey, and you talked about confronting reality you don't want to make people angry, you don't want to lose the workforce. When people will say people are too sensitive and I can't talk about that, what does that look like? I love the 13 rules of how do you restore and deal with trust that no leaders go first? How do you confront reality? What does that look like For someone that's listening? They hear you, but how do you practice it? How do you live it?
Speaker 3:Well, it has to be consistent and we say, you know, and that sort of is very closely aligned to transparency. So a lot of times people will say to me well, corey, you know I can't tell them everything about the company, you know whatever. And so what we talk about also is being transparent about what you can't be transparent about. So when I say to my teams, listen, I can't tell you right now, they're like okay, I got it Because my or our credibility is really high and they know I'm transparent, confronting reality. A lot of times and it goes back to the expect a lot, care a lot as well. Things aren't going right. We need to confront the reality of it.
Speaker 3:The behavior of demonstrating respect is really important and building your trust accounts with your teams to be able to confront reality. If you have nothing in the trust account and you're like, hey, ron, you really blew that, that's a problem. But when you come out, whether it's giving feedback and in our feedback, it's like what? So what now? What, what is it? How is it affecting things? So what Now? How can we work together to move it forward? You know that kind of thing. You need to have a culture of this kind of feedback where you are confronting reality.
Speaker 3:And I will personally say, ron, I am well known for confronting reality and the way you know it's working is when people say to you you know we really appreciate you. I'm known as being very direct, and they will say you know we really appreciate you. I'm known as being very direct, and they will say you know we really appreciate you. You'll always tell us where you're at, we always know the score with you and we really appreciate that, because otherwise people walk on eggshells. But I have to work really hard at authentically building relationships with people, thinking about how do I approach this situation. You know, delicately but putting it on the table, that this is where it's at and you'll find, even if it's painful in the moment, when done well, people really see that as a sign of trust and Corey's willing to tell me what's right and what's wrong and not forget the positive feedback side of it as well. So it can't always be confronting reality about bad stuff. Confront the reality of the good stuff that's going on and don't forget that you know as well.
Speaker 2:Awesome, I love it. I mean, we have some things in common there, Corey. So you know, I tell people, I say I'm pretty transparent. I tell them I'm two things candid and transparent, you know. So I have to figure out how to, how to? You mentioned earlier I have to work on my smile, because my face will look like I'm angry. I'm like, oh, put the smile back on. I'm a veteran as well, so I'm taught how to be very stoic. But but you mentioned OK, so you're extending it. You're candid, You're transparent. You know you'll give direct feedback. What's the role?
Speaker 3:of making sure that when people have to give you feedback, what do leaders need to do to make sure that they give permission to get what they're given? And again, in our new work on the six-world practices we really are, which is a six-world practice, leading a team. So in our section on feedback, there one of the things you know we'll talk about is make sure you give you know, positive feedback. The second one is these are this is not the right exact title make it, take it.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:So, really, how do I absorb, you know, what does it feel like for to take, you know, feedback? And it's really important for leaders to get good at it. And I'm not it's not my best skill, just by the way because I know some people will call me a subject matter expert. I call me a laboratory rat. You know, I live this every day, I practice this every day. I I'm not. I will never get up in front of a keynote with 10,000 people and say I'm perfect. You know I'm like no, I, I'm blessed for having these conversations because I get to learn and practice these skills. I, you know I have to count to 10 when I get constructive feedback. I've gotten much better, you know, over the years and stuff like that, but it's still not easy and people should, you know, accept that like oh yeah, well, great, it's hard, but when we learn to like let me just count to 10 and let my amygdala, you know, calm down and think about it and sleep on it and I'm like you know that was the right feedback.
Speaker 3:It is important for leaders to practice receiving free feedback and knowing what it feels like to get through that defense mechanism, count to 10, and be able to again say oh, you know, gosh, ron, you know, thank you for that. How is that showing up? How is that affecting things out there? You know. So I know what to fit. You know how to not only fix the behavior but fix whatever damage I've done, and then to be able to say again okay, so now I'm going to practice this. You know I'm going to work on this moving forward. Would you mind checking in? You know, can I check in with you in a couple of weeks and see if you're detecting anything? And again there's this. You know our process. It's the what, now what, so what? And so this way, leaders are sensitized to receiving feedback. The team starts to trust that leader that they can have these conversations, because I'm sure every listener has been in a place like oh no, which one of us?
Speaker 3:is going to tell them oh no, we're not going to do that and nobody says anything and that's not healthy. So that's a major advantage when you create a culture where people are at both positive feedback and learning how to take feedback, because I like it when you know one of the team members says, corey, boy, you really handled that meeting so well. Thanks so much. Like us, we're human, we need some of that too. So they'll do some positive but also say, corey, can we talk about how you handled that meeting? You know I have some feedback for you on how you handled blah and I'm like sure. So when they feel comfortable doing that, that's an amazing culture that you have.
Speaker 3:The final piece of that. You've now created a place where your team is open to hearing your constructive feedback as well. Now, by doing those things, going first again, we've created a culture and they are trusting and is accepting of the feedback that I have for them, positive and constructive. We got to get to results. If it's not happening, you know, hey, let's talk about you know some of the roadblocks I'm seeing on the project you're working on with that. Do you have some time and again describing it, describing how it's impacting the work and setting up some accountability for how we're going to check in. So that's how you create a culture of feedback. Leaders need to go first.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it. Let me unpack a little bit for you. I mean, you're giving a ton of information. I know they're taking notes. You're walking through steps and you'll be able to go back and listen to this recording over and over again and listen to what corey is sharing, giving feedback, what I found that for me personally, if my leader cared enough about me, I hope they would give me feedback. How does care connect with feedback?
Speaker 3:Well, if you said, hey, give me feedback, and I'm like, yeah, you really sucked at that project, that's not with a lot of care. Yes, the care is understanding that even when somebody says, hey, do you have some feedback for me? That even though there's courage in saying, do you have some feedback for me? A, don't forget that maybe positive feedback would be helpful. You know around it. But also just remembering, don't just say, boy, you really did a terrible job on that project. I hope you get better. But and that's why we have a structure to say, listen, you're doing great.
Speaker 3:And I know people do the give positive, negative. I mean there's all kinds of ways to do it. People do the give positive, negative. I mean there's all kinds of ways to do it, but you want to do it authentically, no matter what. But I care about how somebody feels and no matter how courageous you are in saying can you give me some feedback on the project? What went well and what didn't? All right, here's what went well, here's why it went well, not just saying, hey, you did a really good job on the project, because that's you need more here's. Do you want a couple of examples? Yeah, on the project at this particular fit, you know whatever you know. So details, don't leave them at good job.
Speaker 3:The other thing is, when you're saying here's some constructive feedback, I always say you've got to pause, you've got to. Like Ron, you know you didn't handle the conversation with Mary in a way that made her feel you know okay, and here's, you know, let me, let me. Let me give you an example. You have to pause. You can't just keep rambling on. If you care about the person, you're going to stop because, no, even though we're expecting it, our brains are going to go into defensive mode. 99% of the time there might be one person out there that's like, oh yeah, okay, got it, that's great. I'm not that person, so, but it's not all about me. But you got that pause when you're giving feedback and let somebody just digest it and like, just get over that, and then to say, okay, ron, we good, you ready to continue? Yes, questions for me, you know kind of thing. That's how you show you care, making sure you have a couple of examples and then together saying how what you and this goes into coach, feedback and coaching is so closely related.
Speaker 3:It's caring, is not. You might think it's caring in disguise. Caring is not saying so. Here's how I think you should fix it. Caring is seeing the potential in the other person and going back to value and trust and saying, okay, so that's the situation, you've done 100 projects really well, so acknowledge past successes is what I think is incredibly important. If somebody is feeling almost like ashamed, like oh gosh, I did that poorly and it's like you've done this. You know many things like this very. You know well what. What do you think we can do, or to to do it differently next time, and let you do the work of figuring out what the solution is that's caring.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it. Let me flip to the other side of it. So we're talking to leaders. What do you tell the young leader that wants to get better side of it. So we're talking to leaders. What do you tell the young leader that wants to get better? How to seek out and receive feedback without taking it personal? How do you prep the person that has to receive it? And the boss may do everything right, just as you're saying, but this person is very self-critical. No matter how much you tell them they've done well, they're still going to go in this internal destructive process and say you're not happy. How do you prep people to first ask for it and see?
Speaker 3:feedback as a gift and get prepared not to take it personally. Well, I think, again, doing some of the work around, you know what we said. I mean, you can only tell or try to bring somebody around so many times. So if there's somebody that is just stuck on it and is self totally over, self-deprecating, and you know, and, and, and, and there were maybe there were two things that I that I heard in there that somebody that, no matter what you say, they still think they're bad at it, is that what you were?
Speaker 2:sort of saying, very self-critical and they're-critical and they're not getting over.
Speaker 3:It May not be your best candidate as a leader, because at some point there's only so much you can do and then it becomes an energy sucker. So I don't want to go into psychology here, but now you're talking to somebody Like we've had this conversation five times. You're doing great at this. I've given you you feedback on that. We have the steps in place to improve. What more? How, how else do you think I can help you and put it back on them? Yes, and if they don't have an answer and it's just a chronic condition, then then you have to.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying, sometimes tough love yes play as well, but doing the work, doing the practice, like I said before, with the general population of leaders on. Let's practice taking constructive feedback, and that's what we do in our courses. Let's role play this thing, you know, let's how does it feel and getting a hold of that and learning to be very self-aware and proactive, not react, not not reacting to it, counting to 10, saying you know what. I really appreciate the feedback, let me sleep on it and can I? Can I, can I set some time with you tomorrow to continue the conversation, cause, honestly, I just need to process. That's good too.
Speaker 3:And so, practicing doing some of that and sensitizing ourselves as leaders so that we're not defensive and we learn how to be proactive to fix things. You know, ok, I got it. Here's some things I think I can do to fix that. You know, let me you know, if you don't mind, I want to check in with you, see how I'm doing and we'll get better. I want to check in with you, see how I'm doing and we'll get better. That's sensitizing ourselves to it, so we get better at it and, like I said, I am not great at it, but I get better and better. The person who doesn't get over it, you might need to move them on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean and thank you for the transparency and I love that because I think on the podcast we're always pretty transparent and open about. You know perspectives, as you have done well. You're in a senior role, you know with your organization and you've had to take the journey. How important did mentors and advocates play in your career journey? And so for those young leaders that are listening that oftentimes want to go solo and go by themselves and figure it out the hard way, how important did mentors and advocates and sponsors play in your advancement in your career?
Speaker 3:You know, I was very lucky with the mentors that I had and I was never in an organization where there was a mentorship program that I had and I was never in an organization where there was a mentorship program that I had a mentor. It was all organic. You know, through through my life I was lucky enough to have some leaders um, from CEOs to VPs to directors that were terrific to work, to work for. I've had a couple you know that. You know we all talk about that you would never want to work for. I've had a couple that we all talk about, that you would never want to work for that person, but they were really important in giving me feedback.
Speaker 3:I remember one CEO, a really influential person in my life in my previous company, franklin Covey, early on, but he me and I'll give you two examples with this one CEO and then the other CEO. He accused me. He said you know, we've talked about this, maybe it's the Peter principle in place, maybe you've just gone as far as you can go and that's it. Well, that made me just crazy and I'm like well, I'm going to show you.
Speaker 2:It's like getting promoted past your potential Like this is it for you? Your train stop is right here, right.
Speaker 3:Right, and he was a great mentor and I remember we would sit down every week I mean, we had our weekly meeting but he was always always mentoring, always coaching, not telling me what to do, but coaching, encouraging me. And then I remember he left. I actually took on his role all in good faith with everybody the CEO of the company he was actually the president of the company, so CEO is when I became the EVP of worldwide operations for the company, so reporting to the CEO, and he would give me a year's notice where he'd say, okay, corey, this year I don't have a financial background. I didn't go to, I didn't know what a P and L was when I, you know, was in my early now, now I do, you know kind of thing. And my older sister is a CFO.
Speaker 3:I remember when I went to work for my previous company, you know as a young kid, I called her up and I said L, can you tell me what a balance sheet is? Can you tell me? You know, I, I didn't know any and my family is full of accountants, but not me. But he said to me you have a year, I want you to learn everything you can about running a finance department, wow. And he sent me out there and I remember going at the time Barnes and Noble and I and I'm a lifelong learner. I don't have a lot of schooling, but I'm a lifelong learner, always learning, and I learned everything. And I teach business acumen classes. You know, you know now and have developed them and all of that, but I learned everything about it. And the key to leadership is you don't have to be the technical expert. But I knew enough that a year after that he put the finance department under me, in addition to the marketing department, the training department and other departments as well. And that's just two examples.
Speaker 3:I've had some amazing mentors and it's really important for people to find them. Stephen Covey would say and I'm butchering this, but the idea of it takes somebody to see the worth and potential in somebody else. And these people saw even though he accused me you know Richard, accused me of, you know, peter Principle he did that for a reason because he knew it would challenge me, and they saw worth and potential in me to help me grow. And it's really. We're moving so fast in the world. I beg leaders to slow down and see people as people and see what they have to offer Not this job they're doing, but and I say this to brand new leaders you might be promoted off of a team that you've been working with for a couple of years and think you know them because you see their work.
Speaker 1:You don't know them.
Speaker 3:Sit down and have a conversation with them and learn about their strengths and their concerns and their talents and their hobbies, to see what they really bring to the table, what is their worth and potential that you have the opportunity to work with in your new role, and senior leaders should do the same.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 2:You know, as a veteran, one of the things that we were trained early on is you got to know your people, and it was not the job they do for you, but know them as a human being. You couldn't lead if you didn't know that, and I think that part of it was so vital to me, taking the time and pausing long enough to see you pass the product or service you can deliver, and so I would tell leaders that are listening do you really know your people? What do they dream, what do they want a year or 10 years from now, and what can you do for them that they can't do for themselves? And that, for me, was how I always lean into mentoring is what can I do for you? You know, corey, that you can't do for yourself. I got to open up that door, I got to introduce that to you. I got to expose you to this, you know. So here's my final question for you what do you wish you had been exposed to as a young leader? That would have served you well today.
Speaker 3:It's a very good question. Obviously, people can tell these were not prepared questions. Because you're really making me think about it.
Speaker 2:We're just having a coffee talk.
Speaker 3:Yes, you know I'm not sure I have a good. I'll tell you one answer this is not, it's not what you want, but I'll tell you my weakness out there. But again, growing up, you know, when I started it wasn't as important as it is now. I never learned how to do Excel really well. Yeah, I know that's not the answer. You probably want some people oriented answer, but I never learned how to use Excel and I did find that through my career, to be now with AI.
Speaker 3:You know it could be easy, you know I've got it democratizes Excel for me a little bit, but but I didn't learn that. And through my career as I was getting hired organizations, I didn't learn that. And through my career as I was getting hired organizations, you know, and back in the day we had more assistance, real human assistance and stuff like that, to do stuff like that, and I never really mastered it. And I can master anything I put my mind to, but I never really wanted to, honestly. But that was a bit of a along the way, not being able to whip out some of the analysis on my phone. I wish I had done a better job of that back in the day.
Speaker 2:I mean phenomenal. Yes, I mean, because it's not always the people. Part of it's a technical piece too. What do you wish, as a leader, you had gotten exposed to more so you could leverage it more in your career. And I tell people all the time there's just different things that you wish you had been exposed to a lot more of. I think for me. I was a decent writer, but I realized at some point in my career that I had to make it better, and it came from me not producing a product that I was embarrassed about when it got highlighted publicly. I'm like that'll never happen to me again. So I wish someone had put a little bit more pressure on how important it was for me to be able to articulate myself in writing as well as I could verbally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, great, great and they're both equally important.
Speaker 2:As a leader, that you got to be able to write just as well as you speak and when you show up in rooms. I think those things are, as you're looking at, some of the young leaders that are out there. If you're really good at something, where's the area?
Speaker 3:and I don't use weakness, but where's the area for opportunity for you to be better? Yes, I, I, that's that's the right word. It's. It's not a weakness. You haven't your strengths and everybody knows trends, find and stuff like that, and it's like you know those trends are. What else can we strengthen versus? You know, I can. That's what I'm saying. I mean even today, because some people are like, well, go do an excel thing.
Speaker 2:I could, um, but it would have been easier if it was more native to me from earlier in my life yes, yes, and I think for for me as well, and it still resonates today I wish I was exposed to more than my zip code. You know where I got outside of just my community or my school or my race or my gender or my background or what my parents did. I think, just exposed because we're a global economy now, how much it would have benefited me as a leader to understand all those different things in society, to be more effective at leading them and caring about them and taking care of them. Because I had a limited view of the world, I wish I had been exposed to more of the world than just my zip code.
Speaker 3:You know. Just to comment on that, I got lucky with that too, because I was born and raised in New York. I was there until I was 19. And then life circumstance I left. I went up to the Pocono. I didn't want to, since I'm like five I knew I didn't want to really be in New York and my family's still there. But I was in the Pocono Mountains and then my work pulled me to Indianapolis and then to Tucson, which is where I lived and ended up working for international companies. But I got.
Speaker 3:When I went to Indianapolis it was for personal reasons and it was completely different than the life I'd had in New York. And I always look at that and I go. I'm really grateful that started that because just my family in New York it was very cloistered growing up in Brooklyn, new York, in a particular neighborhood, and I thought, knowing my family there too at the time, um it just I hear you. I'm just I hear you on what you're saying. If people do have the opportunity to just open up to outside things and not get stuck in a box, it's you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 1:Right, you, you you.
Speaker 3:You form opinions and have ideas and they're fine, but it would be great in the world we're living in, it would be great too If you just opened up and saw more, heard more. It helps you be better.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and that's what I share with people. Well, you've been phenomenal. I mean, I definitely will keep your information because I would love to in several months as you continue to do the work within the organization. You guys are doing a phenomenal job. I use your content of materials and I'm reading and studying.
Speaker 2:As a leader, I say who's doing it better than me? Let me go look at them. What are they doing? What are they talking about? And I use your book. I mean, I literally build around. You know the five levels of trust and how trust is, and what do you do? And people always say well, ron, do you really ask to look? As a leader, you don't have an option. You got to trust. You can't even get your job done if you don't trust people. Well, why do I have to? I say, if you want to be successful, you got it, and so I would love to bring you back on and talk about how do leaders do that effectively, because I have a lot of people that struggle with it. Is there anything that we haven't discussed that you want to share? You said, ron, this is really important. I think it'd be great for leaders. Is there anything that comes to mind that bubbles to the top that you want to share before we wrap up.
Speaker 3:I think that you know when you say bubble up in the final thing, even and again, our new upgrade to the six-quartile practices that'll be out in a number of months, you know the final. We moved the sixth practice to leverage one-on-ones to win. And I would say to leaders there's some organizations like, no, we don't do one-on-ones, we just think fine. There's some organizations like, no, we don't do one-on-ones, we just think fine, the one-on-one, everything we've talked about today, even with trust, if you're not holding one-on-ones in a mutual shared accountability kind of way, you're missing a real opportunity.
Speaker 3:Having a cadence of connection is so important. We learned that in the pandemic too. It's a. It's a, you know, primal need to connect with people. And so just spending time with somebody and doing some of these things, setting it, you know what are the being clear both on expectations. What do we need coaching on? Do either one of us need feedback? How about our energy levels? Are we burning out? Are we? You know what's going on? And just having everything we talked about here coalesce into what's needed in a one-on-one to work on is really a way to retain great people and make them feel really engaged and ready to go back out there and do the work. So that's I'd say, don't leave that out and don't be canceling them. If you are out there, you know, holding your head down now because you're like, oh gosh, I keep canceling them.
Speaker 3:The worst thing, the worst thing you can do, because, even if people don't consciously feel it, it's like OK, they don't really care about me, they keep canceling my one.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that's the message it sends. So I know you mentioned a couple of times you guys have new products and stuff coming out. Is there anything that you know, as people are listening, you know that you know the Franklin Cubby will be releasing soon, that people need to pay attention to Anything you can share with us coming out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and thank you so much for asking. I will say we just released our updated. I know sometimes these are the best kept secrets. We have some really terrific and well great uptake on our sales training called Helping Clients Succeed. So, helping Clients Succeed it's very much built from the customer's point of view, the buyer's point of view, not the seller's point of view. That is just released in multiple modalities along with a sales leadership piece to it as well for sales leaders. So that, just re-released, the Six Girl Practices will be out in a few months.
Speaker 3:And when you were talking about writing, I know that a lot of people are using AI to write, and we do too. But our new Writing for Results course again, a lot of the younger generations just how do I even set something up, even for AI to be able to prompt it in the right way? So that is coming out over the next couple of months. And those people that are diehard Seven Habits people we just released Seven Habits 5.0. So, again, those are timeless principles that are pointed at today's issues and that's been wildly popular again. So it continues to be over time. So those are some of the things that are happening in the moment.
Speaker 2:Thank you. You've been a phenomenal guest. I mean, you know organization and you guys have been tested and proven over and over again to add value to organizations and people in leadership roles. Thank you for all that. You do Love to have you back on the show. If you're ever in South Carolina, please let me know so we can, we can, we can find a way to get you on someone's stage and add value to our community thank you, you're very.
Speaker 3:What am I? What am I? Just moved to south carolina because she just wanted to be there. So, hey, ron, you're great, your questions are terrific. So I really appreciate the time and thanks everybody for listening awesome, thank you.
Speaker 2:What's the best way to reach you if someone wants to reach out to you?
Speaker 3:uh linkedin is uh great. So k-o-r-y-k-o-g-o-n? Uh linkedin is great and, uh, you know, you can always go to our website, wwwfrankencoveycom and see a lot of stuff there, uh, including myself. So thank you for asking awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being with us and for all you that hung out with us today. Thank you, share the podcast, share the link. If you know some phenomenal guests, that adds value to our community. That that's what this is really all about Just having a real honest, down to earth conversation. Send them to us. We'll be happy to talk to them and see if it's a good fit for us. But until next time, corey and I will sign off and tell you to have a phenomenal day and thank y'all for joining us today. Y'all have a great one.
Speaker 1:Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron unpacks sound advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are, for the people you serve, because people always matter.
