Work Gets Better When Leaders Treat Fairness Like A Social Contract

We talk with Hanna Hasl-Kelchner about why fairness at work is a leadership issue that shapes trust, health, and performance. We break down the hidden “unwritten rules” that drag down engagement and share practical ways leaders can build a fairer culture without treating work like a transaction. 
• fairness as a social contract that drives results 
• why power shifts can make good leaders less curious 
• the hidden costs of unfairness: productivity loss, stress, sick days, turnover, lost customer relationships 
• fairness as the foundation of trust, not a wish list 
• five unwritten-rule categories: approachability, recognition, bias, conflict management, workload management 
• how meetings reveal culture through airtime, credit, and interruptions 
• three practices to start now: stronger conflict management, better communication, better listening 
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Disclaimer:

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this podc...

Transcript

Welcome And People Always Matter

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host, Leadership Consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consultant. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron Harvey.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Well, hello everyone.

Meet Hannah And The Fairness Lens

SPEAKER_02 0:29

This is Ron Harvey, the Vice President, the Chief Operating Officer for Global Course Strategies and Consulting. And everything that we do is around People Always Matter. We do a lot of work that's just really helping leaders become better people to take care of the people that they're responsible for, responsible to. Our entire company is built on People Always Matter. But we pause for Unpack with Ron Harvey, and this is a conversation with people from around the globe, all industries, all backgrounds, a wealth of knowledge and experience and fun that we really open up and let you behind the curtain and some things we're doing, some things we're learning, some mistakes we've made on how did we get to where we are. I'm super excited. Um, I have a guest on, and Hannah's coming in, and she's gonna talk about something I always talk about. So I'm not gonna steal any of her thunder. I'd love to hear what her perspective is. So if you follow us, you're probably gonna say, Did I set her up? Did I give her some questions? I never give questions, but her profile fit exactly what I like to talk about. So I'm gonna give uh invite Hannah to the microphone, let her introduce herself however she wish, and then we'll dive into the questions and have some fun with y'all for about 20-25 minutes. Hannah?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Well, thank you for having me, Ronald. Uh my name is Hannah Hassel-Kelchner, and I help people see executives, managers, and entrepreneurs see business issues hiding in plain view. And for uh a long time it was sort of across the board, but more recently I have focused on the people issues because that seems to be, you know, the bottleneck and the pinch point for so many things. Um, and I've recently uh released a book called Seeking Fairness at Work, Cracking the New Code of Greater Employee Engagement, Satisfaction, and Retention, because that seems to be a perennial problem. And if you look at the Gallup poll numbers every year, it's like we're not doing too good in that department. So it's won multiple awards. I'm I'm really thrilled about the response that it's received. And I'm delighted to talk about it with you, Ronald.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Awesome. Do you have it with you? Can you show them? Because you know, this is gonna be video, people get to see it. If you got a copy, you can put it on screen and I have a copy right here.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

This is what it looks like. We just pull back the curtain, the band-aid, whatever you want to do, but we rip it off and we we go raw.

Fairness As Leadership Not HR

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Yeah, yeah. It's uh as you know, you know where we're headed at with this leadership and and fairness. I mean, which is which is important, um, but you spent a lot of time, Helen. You you built your work around fairness in the workplace. What really first made you realize this wasn't just a HR issue, but a leadership issue?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Well, for the longest time, I was a practicing attorney as a generalist. So I was across the board of a lot of issues, uh, including employment issues. And sometimes people came to me instead of HR because um, well, they they thought they had a sympathetic ear, which they did have. I was happy to listen to what they had to say. Um, I couldn't always help them. Um, first of all, I was representing a company, not the individual employees. And when I asked them, you know, go talk to HR, they're like, no, it's gonna get back to my boss and then they're gonna retaliate. And so there was this frustration. And I I also saw it in in other ways in in the organizations that I had the privilege of working with, um, where employees just they held back. Um, they were capable of more, but the managers that they reported to, for whatever reason, just weren't letting them shine as well as they could have. And so, you know, to me, it was like, well, there's there's an unfairness there. And then and then the litigation that I managed, well, there definitely was unfairness because often maybe a legal line was crossed or it got a little too close. Um, but even before you get to that point, there are all these scenarios where it's like, well, you know, should they have done that? Would it have been better to have a different approach to it? Yes, of course. And so over time I started to collect those things and I started to do more research into areas like how power changes people. Um, and it it culminated with seeking fairness at work, because as far as I'm concerned, and it seems to dovetail with the work that you do, Ronald, um, yes, people matter. People, it that that is the engine that drives your productivity. I mean, I know people talk about AI, but come on now. It can only go so far. It can only go so far. I mean, it has some great uses. Um, but it is about people. And, you know, if we stop treating it as a transaction, I pay you now, I own your time, and I can, you know, treat you any way I want, um, and start looking at it as a social contract, then it changes the dynamics tremendously. Um, and I think leaders too often don't realize that what really makes it tick is a solid social contract, not a transaction where, well, I'll just give them more benefits. No, no, you're you're being a jerk over here. The benefits aren't gonna help. There comes a point where, you know, more jelly beans in the break room isn't gonna make a difference.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, I love that you say that. I mean, you said a lot for us to unpack. And, you know, on this show, we really just unpack, and people know that there are no questions set up for any either either one of us. Our guests get to be themselves, and I'm I'm gonna end the conversation. In your work, I mean you mentioned fairness at work. Do leaders often misunderstand that concept of fairness at work? I think they look like fairness at work. I'm the boss, I'm hired, and I guaranteed them a job, and I guarantee them to pay us and benefits. I'm being fair, just do their job.

Power Shifts And Leading With Curiosity

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Right, exactly, exactly. Just do their job. And so the question becomes are you giving them all that they need to do their job well? You know, how responsive are you being? You know, accountability is usually the rolls all downhill, right? On the performance reviews and oh, you this and you should this and should that. And there's a lot of shooting going on, right? But in reality, I wish more supervisors, more bosses would ask their employees, what can I do to help you? What can I do to help whatever bottleneck you encountered this week? What was your biggest challenge this week in the job? And hear what they have to say be curious. Because one thing about power dynamics, as as people rise through the ranks, um there's this sense of a needing to have all the answers, which they really need to have the questions, not the answers, right? Because you can't know everything, nobody can. But by asking the right questions and engaging the people around you, is that's where you build your influence and your team and the real strength and the power that comes with real leadership, because otherwise they're just going to sit back and wait for you to tell them what to do, and it's all on your shoulders, which means you know, more for you to do. Um, and so really being curious is probably one of the biggest mistakes I I've seen leaders make because they feel like they need to have the answers and and they know what to do. And maybe they do, but they're not going to get much buy-in if they just throw it at people instead of you know engaging in conversation. What do you think about this? How could we make this better? Is that the best choice? How do you see it from where you sit?

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah. How do you? I mean, I love what you're what you're unpacking with this. You mentioned a couple of times the power piece of it. And you mentioned, you know, earlier you you spoke about power changes people, which is a it, I I've never I agree 100%. I don't know if I've said it in that manner. How do you help people that work hard to get promoted? You know, I'm a veteran, you know, 21 years of service. And when I first got promoted to my first leadership role, uh I fell into that trap. I'm in charge now. You know, power changed how I talked, it changed what I expected. How do you help people avoid that?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Well, that there's all types of leadership training that is uh available, and you know, I think it's helpful for people to get some of that before they get promoted, in anticipation of the promotion to help them recognize, you know, that the dynamics or the relationships may have shifted a little bit, but you still need to get work done through people. And so when you treat them well, that doesn't mean giving them everything they want. I mean, this isn't charity. This is about what's reasonable and about what's fair. Um, that helps grease the wheels. But if somebody acts like a jerk, that's throwing sand in the wheels. So, so what are you doing? You've got them on the payroll, you've got all this talent, but you're not being able to fully tap it because of dynamics that are interfering, that are causing speed bumps, that are causing people to hold back. Because if they say X, well, now you're gonna do Y because I'm in charge and blah, blah, blah, and you this, and I can fire you. You know, that's the comment sometimes leaders throw around in the hallway and they think they're funny. Oh, I can fire you. It's like, oh, great, good. That's really gonna make me just go the extra mile instead of polish my resume. It's counterproductive. Let's be serious, you know. Um, I'm just being honest with you here, Ronald.

The Real Costs Of Unfairness

SPEAKER_02 9:35

And I love it too. I mean, that's kind of what the show is really about when we do it, is honesty and real transparent. How do you help leaders that that figure out because there's a cost to this? The lack of fairness in the workplace. And you, you know, we're talking in the dream room, you know, what Gallup polls saying, you and I both look at data and probably you know, you know, run alongside each other doing a lot of the same work. What's the real cost, though, from a financial and a human element piece of it? What's the real cost if fairness is missing out of an organization?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Well, there's a number of costs, and some are more apparent than others. Uh, people holding back, um, that impacts your productivity, it impacts your your innovation, it impacts collaboration and really being able to have a team gel and getting that kind of uh energy, you know, and the and the strength that comes from that. Because, you know, you spend time recruiting people, hiring people. Um, it's it's like a big puzzle. You want the pieces to click and not be all separate across the board doing their own thing. So there's there's that piece of it in terms of just the synergy with within a group. But then you also have that tipping point where somebody says, okay, I need this job, I need the benefits, it's hard for me to move. You know, it's so easy for consultants like us to say, oh, we just find another job. Not so easy, especially depending on the market dynamics. And if you have a family, you know, relocating, you know, all of the inconveniences that go with that. You've got your doctors, you've got the schools, you know, you've got your entire support system, you may have family nearby, not so easy. And so people conform and obey, but there comes a point where conforming and obeying starts to rub against your value system, and to the point where you're really twisting yourself into a pretzel and it starts to affect you physically. People have trouble sleeping, grind their teeth at night, they may develop um uh reflux, uh, they may have other issues, this the stress that it creates because there's this tension between their values and what they have to live and what they got to do in order to keep a roof over their head. And it's the tremendous amount of stress. And so it can show up in more health costs for the organization, it can show up in more sick days, it can show up in more people calling in because they want a personal health day. I just I can't I can't do this. Um, I need time off. And in the worst case, they leave. But maybe I shouldn't say the worst case they leave, but because actually the worst case is they stay stuck. And it it's not helpful to the individual, and it's not helpful to the organization. And if they do leave and they've been a long-term employee, well, they're taking a lot of organizational knowledge with them, not necessarily confidential information, that's a whole nother another area, which if it is confidential, then somebody's losing their intellectual property. You know, it could be customer list, it could be you know, an invention or some kind of research they've been working on. And that that could cross the legal line. But just in terms of customer information and you know, who's the customer, what their preferences are. Oh, so-and-so's wife has a birthday here, they like to be able to get a card. You know, those those kinds of um relationships now are disrupted. And it could also mean now that customer is going to a different vendor because before they were putting up with the prices because they like the relationship. It was comfortable, they knew what was going on, but now that's all disrupted. So let's, you know, put out a request for proposal, you know, let's let's do something different. So there's that kind of cost involved, and then you know, the other thing is just the overall impact on the organization um in terms of of the energy, you know, if somebody is being mistreated, the rest of the team sees that. And so that has a domino effect, you know, because well, if it can happen to Hannah, it could happen to me. And I see how they're treating Ronald, and I don't think that's fair. Um, and so people put their head down, you know, they they do go turtle, right? They're gonna protect themselves, and rightfully so. So, you know, there's all kinds of speed bumps that leaders create and costs that are involved, some more obvious than others, because now you have turnover, you got to go through the recruiting process, the interview process, the onboarding, you know, and in the meantime, now somebody new is coming in, the team has to gel again. So there's a lot of lost momentum. So have I covered enough costs?

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Oh, yeah. I mean, a phenomenal job. I mean, unpacking because oftentimes leaders don't see that, oh, they're gonna quit, they're gonna leave, and they they don't look at all the other levers that are being pulled um in the dynamics that is changing. I I was reading the Gallup poll and it said the cost of engagement globally is about$8.8 trillion.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah, it's huge, it's huge. And the thing is that that's so much talent that could be unlocked with the proper leadership, yes, with the proper leadership. If you could just capture a fraction of that, imagine what could happen. Imagine the possibilities, you know, and a lot of things need to align. I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm saying the possibilities and the options are there, and it takes the right person with the right skill set and mindset in order to make that happen. But it is doable.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

What have you noticed on the head of no? Thank you for sharing. What have you noticed that that the lack of fairness? Um, how has it quietly eroded trust with teens?

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Oh my goodness. I mean, you know, to me, fairness is about the oxygen. You can't have trust when you have unfairness. I mean, what what can you what can you trust? I mean, that is like the bottom denominator. And I and I appreciate that some people are like, oh, fairness, it's it sounds like something a five-year-old would throw around. Oh, that's not fair. I didn't get my lollipop. It's like, we're we're not we're not talking about it on that level. We're talking about it um uh as human relationships, not wish lists. And so it's it really is a strategic imperative. It's not about charity, it's about smart business. It really is because you have to get things done through other people, right? And otherwise you're pushing a mule uphill, which is tough and it gets exhausting. It's exhausting, you know. So why not make it easier? Why not make it easier? You know, and it's about being reasonable. And if you go back and you look at Maslow's hierarchy, um, you know, Abraham Madell's his work back from the 1930s, I mean, it's still relevant today in terms of we're humans, we have basic human needs that need to be met. And one of them is, you know, our our our physiological needs. We need to be able to put food on the table. And we put when people don't have a living wage because they're paid minimum wage, which is legal, but they don't have enough hours, they don't have consistent hours, so it's erratic. And so even having a second job is tough because now you got to coordinate schedules, and then they have to make tough choices between, well, we need medicine, we need food on the table, and oh, the rent is due, you know, and the car just blew a tire, you know. I mean, those are tough choices, and so do you blame people for saying, I need a better job? No, they're not gonna stay because they can't they can't trust the system that they're working in at that particular point in time. So there will be turnover. Now, if somebody's okay with all those costs, good for them. Good for them. But I think you and I are talking to leaders that really want to unlock their potential and fix the speed bumps that keep their organization from reaching their full potential, and that's a horse of a different color.

Unwritten Rules That Quietly Run Work

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Yeah, I agree with you 100%. We're talking to those leaders that that that this is important to create in a culture uh where people can show up authentic and give you their best of what they have to offer. When you when you look at like the work and the research that you've done, what if you, you know, if you think of whatever that number may be of the top qualities that leaders that are listening need to need to practice to be fair? What are the things that come to mind that you found in your research that you see consistently great leaders are doing to show fairness and be fair in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Well, fairness really, there's a there's a number of dimensions to it with within an organization to for an organization's culture to be fair. Um, and to me, the biggest stumbling block are what I call the unwritten rules. People don't even realize that, well, this is the way we do it, this is the way we've always done it. Well, those may be some speed bumps, you know, things like um leaders may not be aware about how they present themselves. And I understand, you know, we're we all we all have different personalities and different styles, and that's fine. But the leaders that are how should I say very stiff, very formal, um, they don't they don't talk to those people, they don't talk to those people, you know, they're kind of how do you expect people to you know come up and and you know shake your hand and say, I got an idea, Ronald. What do you think of this? That's not gonna happen, um, because they're not approachable. They're not approachable. And they may not realize that they're doing that. Um, and they also may not realize that when they're conducting a meeting, here's the agenda, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, watching somebody's meetings can tell you so much about an organization's culture in terms of how it's conducted, uh, in terms of who's got air time, in terms of the questions that get asked or don't get asked, in terms of how people get cut off midstream? Gee, Hannah said this over here, but oh no, that's no good. But when Joe says it over here, my God, that's brilliant.

unknown 19:52

You know.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

You must have known what the next question on my mind was, you know, because you know, gender plays a role in that. You know, there are different things in our society that play a role. Has there ever been a time for you where you had to confront unfairness in the leadership? And how did you do it?

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Well, you know, it it's one of those those things. I, you know, I felt like a puppy. You know, you kind of put your nose in there and you push a little bit, you see what happens, then sometimes you get slapped back. And when you get slapped back enough, you go to your bed and you stay there. Um, I don't know that that there are good ways. I I think there are so many factors that depend on on how to challenge it, because there are some leaders they don't want to be challenged. How dare you? And the minute somebody they they feel that they've been challenged, and it's like I wasn't even trying, you know, but the second they feel that they are being um uh questioned in a way that challenges their authority, um, there can be tremendous blowback, you know, which is why I think when new employees come in an organization, when are trying to figure out what are the unwritten rules is one of the first things they want to learn, you know, like uh, you know, don't talk to Ronald until he's had that second cup of coffee, you know, now you're good to go. Or, you know, they've got meetings all morning, so afternoons, but not at 4:30. You know, it's it's those little things. They're not in a handbook, they're not illegal, um, but they do they do determine sort of the velocity and the momentum of um of how we work.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Yeah. So how do leaders become more aware? Because you're right, there are these unwritten rules, and people say, Oh, we don't have those, oh, every organization has unwritten rules.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Everyone does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

You can you can not believe it if you want to, but how do leaders that get become more aware of the unwritten rules? That they may be applying, or their subordinates that are running their departments may have in place that's impacting their velocity and their capability. How do you get a handle on unwritten rules?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Well, I think it can be difficult. One of the things that my research explored in seeking fairness at work is I discovered they fall into five general categories. Now, whether any one of those particular ones, you know, is breached in an organization, you know, that that all depends. And sometimes it takes an outside consultant, you know, sort of a third part, an independent point of view to see what's happening, which is why, you know, going back to uh observing a meeting, uh, that can tell you a lot. But I mean, I can give you the five general categories that those unwritten rules fall into. Um, one is approachability, which we talked about briefly. The other is recognition, where people are not giving the appropriate credit, and it doesn't necessarily mean monetary, but just recognition about the work that they've contributed. You know, and the worst case is when the boss takes credit for the whole team. You know, it's me instead of we. Um, you know, that that's probably one of the worst, worst things. Um, bias. Bias shows up in so many ways. You talked about gender bias before, but it comes up in in so many ways where people don't even realize the values that they've internalized because of where they grew up, their families, their neighborhoods, their education, and so forth, that they are reflecting it in how they speak and how they their body language and all of those types of things that reflect a certain bias that can turn people off and say, Well, you know, nothing I do is gonna make a difference. Um, conflict management. That's really a huge one where people are not trained in how to handle conflict. It's awkward, we want to avoid it, absolutely, um, but there are ways to tackle it. And when you do, you put the relationship back on track, you know, so that you can move forward instead of letting it keep going apart and apart until something breaks. Either you say you're fired, or they say, No, I'm firing you, you know, one or the other. Um, workload management, that's another one where sometimes unrealistic expectations are created by senior management because they they have a certain metric that they want to hit. Well, that's great. But um, you know, practically speaking, it may not be possible, uh, but they don't want to hear it because their bonus is tied to it or whatever, and you know, we're gonna hit that. Like, okay, well, not gonna work. And nobody likes to be set up to fail. That's unfair. That, you know, those are just basic things that are are are totally unfair. So um they they fall into these general buckets, and within each bucket, there's all these little nooks and crannies, like a an English muffin, um, where you can say, well, under this circumstance, no, there could have been better information, there could have been better coordination. Um, maybe the timing was off. I mean, there could be all types of things where you can really get into the nitty-gritty. But um, yeah, I think if leaders were more aware of these things, and and some of it is just asking your employees, going back to those basics and say, so how did the week go? Oh, it was fine. Well, what was your biggest challenge? What could have gone better? What would you have liked to see that didn't happen? And see what the answers are. You know, because that can identify those little small pinch points that if you have the power and authority to do something about, you've just made their job easier. You've given them support, which is very important in the overall relationship.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yeah, I love it. I mean, what's coming to mind as we look at our time here, you know, um, I prep you, you know, um the question I asked is, you know, what what would you leave, you know, if you gave advice? But what comes to mind as you're speaking here is, and I'm thinking, and not I don't do politics on the show at all, but I look at our TSA workers um that they're caught in this crossfire of of politics and policy and approve it and arguing, which but these TSA workers are working at these airports and the lines are wrapped around the building and the cost of unfairness, you've seen it you know play out live. What you're speaking to is fairness. So they're working without pay. Um, and and and it impacts the morale, it impacts the being able to pay their bills, it impacts their families, it impacts everything about their life, and it's impacting us at you know the airports and what's happening, you know, the customer service at the airport. So the cost of fairness is very, very high.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

You're you're absolutely right, Ronald. It is, it is.

How To Spot Issues Hiding Plainly

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. What would you share? Two things I would love for you to to to to as we uh come to a close here. Um, what would you share? Like if you gave someone three top things to get better at fairness at work, what would you share? And then how do we get your book and and how do we get in contact with people?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Um, as far as three things to get more fairness, uh I would say look at your organization. Um focus on conflict management. Yeah, because if that is done well, people will be more willing to trust and say, Ronald, I got a problem because they know Ronald is going to be reasonable about weighing the pros and cons. And Ronald's also gonna explain why a decision is made that maybe not my first choice. But if I understand why, I can accept it. You know, if I know why and I know how, that's that that goes a long way to saying, yeah, all right, that that's reasonable, that's fair. Okay, so uh conflict management, um, communication skills, you know, having somebody uh continuously learn how to improve their communication skills. And now we've got more ways than ever to communicate, and some of them really are causing speed bumps. You know, somebody sends an email and get an answer and a text. Well, I'm not looking there, you know. I mean, there are some simple fixes to say, hey, let's let's find ways and pathways to to make it easier. Uh, and that includes listening. I mean, there's a lot of courses on public speaking. How many on listening? How many on listening? Really? You know, we have different listening styles. So um, so that's that's two. Um, and you're looking for three.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

You have like five in that in that statement of listen, listen more, then you speak, be open, be transparent. You know, it was five in your in your in your wrapper. Where can we find your book at? I mean, uh, and and what would you want people to walk away with by reading your book?

Three Practical Moves And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Well, you know, uh, you can find my book on Amazon, and and I have it in multiple formats. It's in in paperback, it's in print, it's in audio, it's an ebook. So however you like to consume your books, it's available. Um I and I think what I'd like to people to take away is what one person wrote in a review on Amazon. Uh, she wrote, as an employee, I understand now why I was as frustrated as I was. Because I think sometimes we second guess ourselves. You know, it's like, well, they're the boss, so they know more, and maybe it's just me, maybe I'm the problem. So she understood why she felt the way she did. And she said, but as a supervisor, as a manager, it helped me identify missed opportunities. And to me, that that is the gold standard. Because if I can show people some missed opportunities and they can just take one or two of these ideas and put it into practice, they've made their workplace just a little bit fairer. Um, and and maybe helped one person uh who reports to them say, Yeah, I don't want to leave. I I'm it's getting better. It's getting better. Um, so that's that would be um my recommendation. And I'm happy to connect with people on LinkedIn. That's the best place to find me.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yes, yes. I love it. I'm on LinkedIn, so you can go to LinkedIn. Um, you can find Hannah's book. Um, and and how do you just be fair? Um, which which is immeasurable. I I love that you've done that. You also have a podcast, though, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I do have a podcast. It's called uh Business Confidential Now. Um, it's a little on hiatus because I am revamping it to focus on the book. Yeah, so it's gonna be uh Business Confidential Now, T G I F, because we want to have a good week, not oh God, I made it to Friday. So um I'm gonna be uh probably debuting that that new edition in September, and it will be through Substack and you know it'll go syndicated on you know Apple and all of those, but but uh you can find me more active on Substack at that point. So thank you so much for having me, Ron. This has been fun conversation.

Closing Advice And Share The Show

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah, I enjoy. And for everybody that's listening, if you're running your own podcast, uh you want her on, reach out to her. She's on LinkedIn, get a book, um, follow her. Uh and I say this because you know, we're we're business owners, um, we're very invested in what we do. We love what we do. Um, we love to support organizations, both of us do. So if you need either one of us at any time, um you can find him on LinkedIn. That's my primary source of communication, or go to our company webpage for Global Course Strategies and Consulting. Um, would love to have you as a guest, would love to be able to do work with you. Everything we do is people, leadership, um, and taking care of the leader getting better so they can take care of the organizations. Um, thank y'all for joining us. Um, any last-minute wisdom that you want to close us out with, Hannah, that you haven't said already.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Keep being curious, keep learning, keep growing.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yes, yes, love it. For all you that joined us, thank you for staying with us. Tell your friends, tag your friends, post it, share. We'd love to have more people join us. Um, it's all about leadership, it's all about people. That's the space we play in. Thank y'all for joining us, and until next time, Hannah and I will sign off and tell you to have a phenomenal week, and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of Unpack with Ron Harvey.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpack Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron Unpacks Sound Advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are for the people you serve. Because people always matter.